How to deal with ATOS Healthcare and the BDC.

[Niteawk]

It seems that just about everybody who has an ESA medical scores no points
or very few, even when they scored points before when claiming ESA and
incapacity benefit. Some, like myself, have already been to tribunal and
awarded ESA only to find they have to attend another ATOS medical, and the
process is repeated. This could be something to do with ATOS getting paid
for everyone they get off benefits.

Getting to the medical centre? how to get a taxi to collect you. They have
to send a taxi for you if you can show it takes more than 90 minutes for you
to get to the medical using public transport. Ring the number on the
appointment letter to arrange this and do not take no for an answer, they
have to send a taxi to collect you, that is the rule. They actually have a
contract with taxi firms to do this so let them get on with it.

I got them to send a taxi to collect me for my last medical, although it
would take less than 90 minutes from my local bus station, I don't live in
the bloody bus station. Therin lies the flaw, it would take me a half hour
to get to the bus station, thats if I got on a bus straight away, hang on a
mo, it takes me 10 minutes to walk to the nearest bus stop, then I have to
wait, you get the picture. 90 minutes could pass before I got to my local
bus station let alone the medical centre but we don't want to go mad and
include the time it takes to dress ourselves etc. In total it would take 3
bus changes and at least half an hour of walking making a travel time of at
least 2 hours assuming I did not have to wait for any buses in between.

Once you receive the dreaded letter telling you that you no longer qualify
for ESA, (additional info 2nd from bottom paragraph) submit an appeal on a
GL24 stating that you disagree with the decision to disallow ESA. Do not
worry about the details at this stage. The point is to appeal so you
continue to get paid ESA without the component rate.

When you have sent in your appeal, find a legal adviser from Shelter or the
CAB to help you to put a more comprehensive appeal together. This is the
point where you and your legal adviser starts asking for ALL the details
relating to your case.

By now you should have a copy of everything they have on you. The DM's
report and the ATOS medical report etc. Present your appeal using the
descriptors that you think they should have used.

Now, this is the good bit, you need to find out if the person who assessed
you is qualified to do so, ie what medical qualifications they have? There
is a 99% chance they are not qualified to assess your particular illness.

Is s/he registered with the GMC? ATOS claims all healthcare professionals
are fully trained to undertake disability assessments, are registered with
the General Medical Council or the Nursing and Midwifery Council, and
approved by the Chief Medical Adviser to the DWP which means they are not
worth a carrot if they have no pervious experience in dealing with patients
with your particular illness, and what use is a bloody nurse or a midwife
ffs. IOW they are not qualified to have an opinion and should not write a
medical report on you. It is against the law to practice medicine in the UK
if you are not qualified and registered with the GMC, otherwise we could all
claim to be doctors.

What is their immigration status? should they be working in the UK,
seriously don't laugh, no end of illegal immigrants have been found working
for MP's and some were even working as cleaners in the Houses of Parliament.
Keep this information seperate, only submit it to a tribunal. You do not
want a DM = decision maker to know about this or they will see to it that
you are called in for another medical to cover themselves. You OTOH want a
tribunal to find out how corrupt they all are. Send the details to the press
if you want to cause a scandle etc. Do not give them any chance to redeem
themselves, you want to hang them from the highest tree you can find. A
complaint to your local MP would not go amiss either, although they are
mostly useless, someone might find an MP that is actually helpful to our
cause.

Actually you will know you failed the medical when your money stops, the BDC
will inform you of the decision in writing about 4 weeks after that. A quick
phone call to the BDC will confirm what has happened to your ESA payments.
You can put in an appeal on a GL24 straight away to avoid waiting for the
BDC to inform you by letter. That should save you a month of waiting without
money or at the very least get your payments going a bit quicker. Hand one
copy to the Jobcentre and post a copy with proof of posting. Phone them a
week later to verify they have your appeal. You will still have to send in
medical certs pending the appeal.

And lastly, remember the ESA system is designed to cause maximum hassle to
put you off claiming so do not give up. Unless you are actually near death
or dead, they will fail you so be prepared. If everyone appeals that should
force them to change the rules eventually, that is why they keep delaying
migrating people from IB to ESA, they can't cope as it is. It only takes a
few minutes to fill in a GL24 to start the ball rolling, do it at your local
Jobcentre and hand it over the counter, get a receipt if they will give you
one.

[m***@hotmail.com]

On Nov 20, 8:27 am, "Niteawk" <***@btinternet.com> wrote:
<snipped>

Post by Niteawk
Now, this is the good bit, you need to find out if the person who assessed
you is qualified to do so, ie what medical qualifications they have? There
is a 99% chance they are not qualified to assess your particular illness.
Is s/he registered with the GMC? ATOS claims all healthcare professionals
are fully trained to undertake disability assessments, are registered with
the General Medical Council or the Nursing and Midwifery Council, and
approved by the Chief Medical Adviser to the DWP which means they are not
worth a carrot if they have no pervious experience in dealing with patients
with your particular illness, and what use is a bloody nurse or a midwife
ffs.

<snipped>

Midwife may be of little use to you, midwife could be a lot of use if
a problem is within their speciality. A woman who is pregnant and is
having problems with the prgenancy, hence unable to do their job - a
midwife is rather more of use and probably knows quite a bit more than
a GP does.
A nurse likely doesn't know as much as a GP - but how much exactly do
they need to know to complete a form?
Could a Physician Assistant (fairly recent in this country) suit you?
Not a doctor, but under doctor supervision.

Benefits, and other parts of our society, have come down to largely a
matter of writing reports and completing forms.
Reality, nuances, even simple not fitting in the box doesn't come into
it.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:01b7f2ec-7d54-4750-8d88-***@j9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
<snipped>

????????????

Martin <><

Hello to Martins world. You cant have midwives or nurses assessing mental
health patients, its against the law.

[m***@hotmail.com]

<snipped>>>>>>>>>>>>????????????
Martin  <><
Hello to Martins world. You cant have midwives or nurses assessing mental
health patients, its against the law.

Really? Which law is that?
Community Psychiatric Nurses - known as CPNs - are nurses. Why would
the NHS employ psychiatric nurses outside hospital settings if they
cannot assess mental health patients?
For some with mental health problems, CPNs are the only psychiatric
professional they see.

What was that you were saying about nurses assessing mental health
patients being against the law?

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
What was that you were saying about nurses assessing mental health
patients being against the law?
Martin <><

As I am dealing with 2 seperate medical services, one that uses nurses ie
ATOS and the NHS that uses qualified doctors and psychiatrists, this is
something that I am looking into, its a bit of a minefield to find exactly
what medical laws ATOS nurses are in breach of.

However the role of the nurse is to follow instructions given by qualified
practitioners. They do not have the power to supersede them. Nurses do not
have autonomy to do what they like. That is a bit like saying theatre nurses
are qualified to diagnose and perform open heart surgery simply because they
assist surgeons in the operating theatre. There is a duty of care for eg,
medical negligence, standards of care etc to prevent harming patients.

As with all government dept's, it is never easy to find legislation that
protects peoples rights from this kind of abuse, the government has a way of
bending laws to remove the rights they say you have. Nurses overruling
doctors for eg when it suits their purpose to deny benefits. And if you
think thats bad, DWP staff with no medical training endorsing these
unqualified decisions. Yet they tell you to qualify for ESA, you need to
submit a medical cert signed by a doctor.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by Niteawk

Post by m***@hotmail.com
What was that you were saying about nurses assessing mental health
patients being against the law?
Martin  <><

As I am dealing with 2 seperate medical services, one that uses nurses ie
ATOS and the NHS that uses qualified doctors and psychiatrists, this is
something that I am looking into, its a bit of a minefield to find exactly
what medical laws ATOS nurses are in breach of.
However the role of the nurse is to follow instructions given by qualified
practitioners. They do not have the power to supersede them. Nurses do not
have autonomy to do what they like. That is a bit like saying theatre nurses
are qualified to diagnose and perform open heart surgery simply because they
assist surgeons in the operating theatre. There is a duty of care for eg,
medical negligence, standards of care etc to prevent harming patients.
As with all government dept's, it is never easy to find legislation that
protects peoples rights from this kind of abuse, the government has a way of
bending laws to remove the rights they say you have. Nurses overruling
doctors for eg when it suits their purpose to deny benefits. And if you
think thats bad, DWP staff with no medical training endorsing these
unqualified decisions. Yet they tell you to qualify for ESA, you need to
submit a medical cert signed by a doctor.

Really? The NHS uses doctors and psychiatrists? Funny, they also seem
to be by far the largest employer of CPNs too.

And you don't quite know what law ATOS are in breach of? Then how do
you know what they are doing is against the law?


Yes, the role of a nurse is to follow instructions. That might include
doing quite a bit on their own authority, up to a point.
From operating unltrasound devices to taking blood, changing
dressings, assessing mental health or simple stitching, some
instructions are given by doctors, some are part of the nurses own
role and is within their authority, their job description.
Not to say that a doctor doesn't view the information gained, the
patient notes, the reports generated. Just nurses aren't on a short
leash awaiting doctors telling them what to do all the time.

True, government does have a tendency to bend or break laws when it
feels it necessary. Doesn't always get punished either (such as the
use of poison gas in world war 1, illegal by that time).
But these days tends to get caught out - and press can be pretty
powerful.

What nurse has overruled a doctor? Doctor takes what you say for
signing you off sick from your job. Later a nurse doing an assessment
can state what you are and aren't capable of - the two aren't the
same.
Might be easier if your own GP could do the ATOS assessment - but
would they provide different information? Thats what it boils down to.

DWP staff with no medical training doing administrative decisions
regarding a benefit, who'd have guessed they were capable eh? Only
been done for decades without you complaining.
So what makes these particular staff unable to do administrative
decisions? Medical side has already been done, and like insurance
companies and even HR departments, don't need medical staff to do
adminstrative decisions.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And you don't quite know what law ATOS are in breach of? Then how do
you know what they are doing is against the law?

That's what I said isn't it. I don't know the bloody law, I am not a legal
expert.

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Yes, the role of a nurse is to follow instructions. That might include
doing quite a bit on their own authority, up to a point.

There you go then, common sense shold tell you that their role cannot
include changing a doctors diagnosis.

Post by m***@hotmail.com
True, government does have a tendency to bend or break laws when it
feels it necessary.

Yes, but when the government starts breaking the law to rob its own
citizens, you should be very concerned. We all pay for this service,
therefore we are entitled to it. I have paid into the system, my whole
family pays into the system, my brother pays over a £1000.00 per month in
tax, some of my family members pay more than that. You or some member of
your family might need this service one day. I do not think you would
appreciate having to support a family member because the government sees fit
to rob people of their entitlement. The moral here is to avoid paying taxes
because the bastards in power are not keeping their end of the deal.

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Might be easier if your own GP could do the ATOS assessment - but
would they provide different information? Thats what it boils down to.

Exactly, being eminently more qualified, if my GP declared me fit, I would
accept that without argument, even if there was a right of appeal, I would
not use it. But we are dealing with corruption that goes right to the heart
of government, you know what they are doing is dishonest so you have to
fight to get what you are entitled to by law, that a laugh isn't, what you
are entitled to by law, if only the country was not being run by criminals.

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Only been done for decades without you complaining.

I have not been claiming for decades, only since last year so the way I see
it is, I have every right to complain. Maybe I should join some radical
group and blow the fuckers up, actually I think on balance it is better to
stick with the official route for now, even though I know they are all lying
cheating and dishonest bastards and the system is about as corrupt as you
can get, it is ironic that I have to use the same corrupt system to get
justice. The idea here I suppose is to create yet another illusion that the
laws of this land are fair and just and you always have the right to redress
should you need it. In effect we have 2 systems, one to support you and one
to rob you and the one they use for robbing you to save a few pennies costs
more to maintain than the whole lot put together.

[m***@hotmail.com]

On Nov 22, 10:34 am, "Niteawk" <***@btinternet.com> wrote:
<snipped>

Post by Niteawk
Yes, but when the government starts breaking the law to rob its own
citizens, you should be very concerned. We all pay for this service,
therefore we are entitled to it. I have paid into the system, my whole
family pays into the system, my brother pays over a £1000.00 per month in
tax, some of my family members pay more than that. <snipped>

Then aren't you glad that our system doesn't pay out to you only if
you and your family have paid a fortune in first.
The people have paid for this service, therefore entitled to claim.
Not necessarily entitled to receive anything however, that depends on
the particular circumstances.
Including being assessed as fit for work, or not.

Come to think of it, I can't think of anyone who doesn't pay into the
system in some way, from the people on my uni course to the pensioner
next door or my neice who is almost 9.

Martin <><

[m***@hotmail.com]

On Nov 22, 10:34 am, "Niteawk" <***@btinternet.com> wrote:
<snipped>
"You cant have midwives or nurses assessing mental

health patients, its against the law."

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And you don't quite know what law ATOS are in breach of? Then how do
you know what they are doing is against the law?

That's what I said isn't it. I don't know the bloody law, I am not a legal
expert.

So are they acting against a law you don't know about then?
Or are they acting within whatever law that you don't know about?

You were the one to state what they are doing is against the law.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
So are they acting against a law you don't know about then?
Or are they acting within whatever law that you don't know about?
You were the one to state what they are doing is against the law.
Martin <><

I have already explained my position, but you keep BSing. If you are so sure
ATOS nurses are not breaking the law, you need to show me what law gives a
nurse the right to veto or overrule a decision made by a doctor without
their permission or knowledge. If you can't do that, shut the fuck up.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by Niteawk

Post by m***@hotmail.com
So are they acting against a law you don't know about then?
Or are they acting within whatever law that you don't know about?
You were the one to state what they are doing is against the law.
Martin  <><

I have already explained my position, but you keep BSing. If you are so sure
ATOS nurses are not breaking the law, you need to show me what law gives a
nurse the right to veto or overrule a decision made by a doctor without
their permission or knowledge. If you can't do that, shut the fuck up.

I'm not the one making the allegation that they are breaking a law,
you did that.

And how is doing an assessment, by the sound of it quite different
from any your GP or CPN made, over-ruling a decision by a doctor?
Your doctor isn't the one doing an ESA assessment.

Does the law relating to ESA state that a decision on benefit
entitlement will be made based on an independent assessment? Or does
it state that just sick notes from the claimants own GP will be used?


You really haven't dealt with the NHS much have you? A GP may make an
initial diagnosis that you have a tension headache. Another doctor at
the same practice a few weeks later diagnoses the same problem as a
migraine. And a hospital consultant 6 months later after much
complaining by the patient diagnoses a small brain tumor that has been
there for almost a year.
Three medical professionals, overruling a decision by a previous
doctor, presumably without asking their permission or knowledge at the
time.
That example? An old friend of mine, now deceased.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ebfcdb82-abc9-400e-a2d5-***@k5g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 22, 9:19 pm, "Niteawk" <***@btinternet.com> wrote:
Snip

Post by m***@hotmail.com
I'm not the one making the allegation that they are breaking a law,
you did that.

Martin <><

You are the one asking stupid fucking questions, if I am wrong, prove it.
WHAT FUCKING LAW ALLOWS A NURSE TO OVERRULE A DOCTOR? and as before, if you
do not know then shut the fuck up.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Snip

Post by m***@hotmail.com
I'm not the one making the allegation that they are breaking a law,
you did that.

Martin  <><
You are the one asking stupid fucking questions, if I am wrong, prove it.
WHAT FUCKING LAW ALLOWS A NURSE TO OVERRULE A DOCTOR? and as before, if you
do not know then shut the fuck up.

Yes, I am asking questions because you made the statement that they
are breaking the law.
So tell us what law. You made the statement, its up to you to back it
up.

If you don't know, keep your trap shut and stop throwing baseless
accusations of lawbreaking around.

And when has a nurse overruled a doctor? Nurse isn't doing a sick
note, doctor isn't doing an assessment. Two SEPERATE things.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Yes, I am asking questions because you made the
statement that they are breaking the law.

And I said I am not a legal expert. Nurses are subordinate to doctors so
common sense should tell you, if you were not such an idiot, that nurses
must obey doctors. I think everyone except you know that.

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And when has a nurse overruled a doctor?

By writing a medical report saying I am fit for work when a doctor has
signed me off unfit for work.

But unlike you who keeps on like some fucking demented parrot, I will find
out what the legal position is by asking someone who knows about medical
law.

And you still have not proved I am wrong, so you know what you can do.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by Niteawk

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Yes, I am asking questions because you made the
statement that they are breaking the law.

And I said I am not a legal expert. Nurses are subordinate to doctors so
common sense should tell you, if you were not such an idiot, that nurses
must obey doctors. I think everyone except you know that.

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And when has a nurse overruled a doctor?

By writing a medical report saying I am fit for work when a doctor has
signed me off unfit for work.
But unlike you who keeps on like some fucking demented parrot, I will find
out what the legal position is by asking someone who knows about medical
law.
And you still have not proved I am wrong, so you know what you can do.

And yet you are enough of a 'legal expert' to claim that what is being
done is against the law. Without knowing which law, just chucking
baseless accusations around.
As we should expect of you.

Who has said that nurses shouldn't obey doctors? Where, in any posts,
has anyone suggested that nurses shouldn't obey doctors?

Your whole argument seems to be that a nurse has completed an
assessment form.
Is that within the requirements that the DWP has with ATOS?

Glad you will find out what the legal position is, maybe then you'll
think before making statements about legality.

Oh, and why should I prove you wrong? You made the statement, its up
to you to back it up.
Seeing as you have stated you don't know the law, your statement about
something being against the law is shown to be your usual nonsense.


Martin <><

[Niteawk]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Your whole argument seems to be that a nurse has completed an
assessment form.
Martin <><

You are adamant that I am wrong for saying a nurse overruling a doctor must
be against the law but you are unable to prove it. What does that tell you?
clearly I must be right or you would have proved me wrong by now. I get the
feeling I am talking to a demented child, so I am going to draw a line under
this.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by Niteawk

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Your whole argument seems to be that a nurse has completed an
assessment form.
Martin  <><

You are adamant that I am wrong for saying a nurse overruling a doctor must
be against the law but you are unable to prove it. What does that tell you?
clearly I must be right or you would have proved me wrong by now. I get the
feeling I am talking to a demented child, so I am going to draw a line under
this.

No, read what YOU posted.

"You cant have midwives or nurses assessing mental
health patients, its against the law."

Yet you cannot say what law. YOU made the statement, YOU back it up.
Your idea that because someone else doesn't prove you wrong therefore
you must be right is simply childish. I'd expect it of a 4 year old
child, is that your mental age these days?
If so, suprised you got turned down by ESA.

Glad you are drawing a line under this. Maybe in future you'll think
before trying to state something as fact when you don't know about it.

Martin <><

[Robbie]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by Niteawk

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Your whole argument seems to be that a nurse has completed an
assessment form.
Martin <><

You are adamant that I am wrong for saying a nurse overruling a doctor must
be against the law but you are unable to prove it. What does that tell you?
clearly I must be right or you would have proved me wrong by now. I get the
feeling I am talking to a demented child, so I am going to draw a line under
this.

No, read what YOU posted.
"You cant have midwives or nurses assessing mental
health patients, its against the law."
Yet you cannot say what law. YOU made the statement, YOU back it up.
Your idea that because someone else doesn't prove you wrong therefore
you must be right is simply childish. I'd expect it of a 4 year old
child, is that your mental age these days?
If so, suprised you got turned down by ESA.
Glad you are drawing a line under this. Maybe in future you'll think
before trying to state something as fact when you don't know about it.
Martin <><

This thread is drawing to a close at a coincidental moment when the
Government have announced the result of a four month independent inquiry
into the operation of ESA which has resulted in two dozen
recommendations, all of which the Government have accepted. The report
is very critical of the administrative operation of ESA, from initial
claim to the medical and beyond (eg to the appeal procedure).

One recommendation is that Decision Makers stop acting as rubber
stampers of ATOS reports where ATOS state that someone is fit for work
and instead just treat ATOS reports as evidence that carries the same
weight as a claimants own GP or consultant, as well as the claimant's
own evidence from the ESA50. Another is that the descriptors for people
with mental health problems be urgently re-examined as they are perhaps
unduly harsh and are leading to 68% of people with mental health
problems being found fit for work. Unfortunately the latter will come
too late for people currently being assessed or in the appeals sytem
since the recommendations will not be ready for another two months and
if accepted by the DWP will need to be enacted into regulations which
will take until April or so to become law...

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by Robbie

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by Niteawk

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Your whole argument seems to be that a nurse has completed an
assessment form.
Martin  <><

You are adamant that I am wrong for saying a nurse overruling a doctor must
be against the law but you are unable to prove it. What does that tell you?
clearly I must be right or you would have proved me wrong by now. I get the
feeling I am talking to a demented child, so I am going to draw a line under
this.

No, read what YOU posted.
"You cant have midwives or nurses assessing mental
health patients, its against the law."
Yet you cannot say what law. YOU made the statement, YOU back it up.
Your idea that because someone else doesn't prove you wrong therefore
you must be right is simply childish. I'd expect it of a 4 year old
child, is that your mental age these days?
If so, suprised you got turned down by ESA.
Glad you are drawing a line under this. Maybe in future you'll think
before trying to state something as fact when you don't know about it.
Martin  <><

This thread is drawing to a close at a coincidental moment when the
Government have announced the result of a four month independent inquiry
into the operation of ESA which has resulted in two dozen
recommendations, all of which the Government have accepted. The report
is very critical of the administrative operation of ESA, from initial
claim to the medical and beyond (eg to the appeal procedure).
One recommendation is that Decision Makers stop acting as rubber
stampers of ATOS reports where ATOS state that someone is fit for work
and instead just treat ATOS reports as evidence that carries the same
weight as a claimants own GP or consultant, as well as the claimant's
own evidence from the ESA50. Another is that the descriptors for people
with mental health problems be urgently re-examined as they are perhaps
unduly harsh and are leading to 68% of people with mental health
problems being found fit for work. Unfortunately the latter will come
too late for people currently being assessed or in the appeals sytem
since the recommendations will not be ready for another two months and
if accepted by the DWP will need to be enacted into regulations which
will take until April or so to become law...
--
Robbie- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the information Robbie.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

One recommendation is that Decision Makers stop acting as rubber stampers
of ATOS reports where ATOS state that someone is fit for work and instead
just treat ATOS reports as evidence that carries the same weight as a
claimants own GP or consultant, as well as the claimant's own evidence
from the ESA50.

Interesting, so ATOS nurses can continue undermining GP's and consultants
reports. The only difference is DM's are being asked to look at both aspects
before rubber stamping reports. Can't see how that is going to help much.


Another is that the descriptors for people

with mental health problems be urgently re-examined as they are perhaps
unduly harsh and are leading to 68% of people with mental health problems
being found fit for work.

This OTOH has the potential to make a small difference, assuming MH
descriptors are relaxed making it easier to score more points. You still
have ATOS to contend with and they are not really fussy who they fail when
they get paid by results. No results, no contract. The dog eat dog syndrome.


Unfortunately the latter will come

too late for people currently being assessed or in the appeals sytem since
the recommendations will not be ready for another two months and if
accepted by the DWP will need to be enacted into regulations which will
take until April or so to become law...

Which is plenty of time for me, my appeal against the component sanctions I
got last year has taken 9 months so far and still no sign of a tribunal
date. At the rate they are going my appeal against the latest ATOS medical
could take a year and a half. I might get to tribunal just in time for the
olympics. ;)

[Robbie]

Post by Niteawk

Post by Robbie
One recommendation is that Decision Makers stop acting as rubber
stampers of ATOS reports where ATOS state that someone is fit for work
and instead just treat ATOS reports as evidence that carries the same
weight as a claimants own GP or consultant, as well as the claimant's
own evidence from the ESA50.

Interesting, so ATOS nurses can continue undermining GP's and
consultants reports. The only difference is DM's are being asked to look
at both aspects before rubber stamping reports. Can't see how that is
going to help much.

The report says that DMs should have been doing this anyway. The report
points out that the ATOS medical is not a medical in the sense most
people would understand it. It is not a medical to discover what health
problems a person has. That should be the role that the claimant's own
GP, consultant etc undertakes. Rather it is a functional assessment, an
assessment that tests the persons health problems against a range of day
to day tasks (hence the descriptors) and is to discover what they can or
can't do. As the report hints at, the descriptors for mental health
problems are perhaps unduly harsh and are therefore being re-examined.

Post by Niteawk
Another is that the descriptors for people

Post by Robbie
with mental health problems be urgently re-examined as they are
perhaps unduly harsh and are leading to 68% of people with mental
health problems being found fit for work.

This OTOH has the potential to make a small difference, assuming MH
descriptors are relaxed making it easier to score more points. You still
have ATOS to contend with and they are not really fussy who they fail
when they get paid by results. No results, no contract. The dog eat dog
syndrome.

If the descriptors are changed to be less harsh then the idea will be
that more points will be scored. Presently people with mild to moderate
mental health problems are gaining so few points because each descriptor
no longer has a 3 point award and few have 6 points. It's 9 or 15 points
meaning the condition has to be present more or less all the time and in
more than a moderate way. The old IB system had more flexibility in its
point scoring - you could get a point here, two points there etc. It was
easier to get to the 15 point threshold, not least of all because people
with only mental health problems (ie no physical problems) had only to
score 10 points and then they were deemed to have scored 15 points.

Post by Niteawk
Unfortunately the latter will come

Post by Robbie
too late for people currently being assessed or in the appeals sytem
since the recommendations will not be ready for another two months and
if accepted by the DWP will need to be enacted into regulations which
will take until April or so to become law...

Which is plenty of time for me, my appeal against the component
sanctions I got last year has taken 9 months so far and still no sign of
a tribunal date. At the rate they are going my appeal against the latest
ATOS medical could take a year and a half. I might get to tribunal just
in time for the olympics. ;)

[Niteawk]

Post by Robbie
The report says that DMs should have been doing this anyway.

That is correct, ATOS say the same thing on their web site, DM's are
supposed to consider all the information provided. But DM's being lazy sods,
they pass the work on to the tribunal service to deal with it. The report is
basically saying that DM's should do some work for a change.



The report

Post by Robbie
points out that the ATOS medical is not a medical in the sense most people
would understand it. It is not a medical to discover what health problems
a person has. That should be the role that the claimant's own GP,
consultant etc undertakes.

Indeed, yet that is what it is called. "Medical Services provided by ATOS on
behalf of the DWP". And then you are invited to attend a "Medical
Examination Centre". Nurses take it upon themselves to write medical reports
and include them with assessments, they are in fact calling the entire
medical profession into disrepute. Perhaps they realise they have gone to
far at last and they should stick to ticking boxes only.



Rather it is a functional assessment, an

Post by Robbie
assessment that tests the persons health problems against a range of day
to day tasks (hence the descriptors) and is to discover what they can or
can't do. As the report hints at, the descriptors for mental health
problems are perhaps unduly harsh and are therefore being re-examined.

And this is where ATOS fails miserably, I think only a psychologist or
psychiatrist has the qualifications required to assess MH patients, if that
is in fact what they do. As you say, it is not really a proper medical.

Post by Robbie
If the descriptors are changed to be less harsh then the idea will be that
more points will be scored. Presently people with mild to moderate mental
health problems are gaining so few points because each descriptor no
longer has a 3 point award and few have 6 points. It's 9 or 15 points
meaning the condition has to be present more or less all the time and in
more than a moderate way. The old IB system had more flexibility in its
point scoring - you could get a point here, two points there etc. It was
easier to get to the 15 point threshold, not least of all because people
with only mental health problems (ie no physical problems) had only to
score 10 points and then they were deemed to have scored 15 points.

The problem here is most ATOS medical staff know nothing about MH. The
nurses they employ tend to deal mainly with the physical side of things, how
to change sheets and empty bed pans, that's about all they know. For ATOS
profit comes first, they are not going to hire people with the right
qualifications in each field. When you think about it, unless one doctor is
qualified in both professions, to conduct a physical and MH assessment and
write the accurate report to go with it, they would need 2 doctors to do the
job properly.

So even though they may relax the regime, the way ATOS operate it could
still prove just as hard to score the points required to get ESA

[Niteawk]

I have shortened this guide up a bit to make it easier to follow. See main
post if you need more detailed info.


1.You are entitled to a taxi if it takes longer than 90 minutes to get to
the medical by public transport.

2.Score less than 15 points and the first thing that happens is your ESA
payments stop, appeal immediately on a GL24.

3.Find a legal adviser to help with your appeal.

-----------------------------------------------

Documents your legal adviser will ask the BDC for pending your appeal.

1.Atos medical report.

2.Decision Makers report.

-----------------------------------------------

Qustions that need answers. Ask your legal adviser to look into No 1 and 2.
Do not pass this info on to BDC or a DM. Keep this info for the tribunal
service. You may have to check a couple of these yourself, actually there is
nothing stopping you doing the whole thing yourself. This can be done
online.

1.Is the healthcare professional qualified to assess your type of illness?

2.Registered with the GMC?

3.Allowed to work in the UK?

------------------------------------------------

What to do when you have no money coming in.

1. Ring the Jobcentre and ask for a Hardship payment. See online for
details, you can get HS payment the same day.

2. You will also need to send in medical certs to keep ESA payments going.

3. You need to renew your medical cert without being asked so make a note of
the dates when you need to renew these. Do this in advance to avoid breaks.

4. You can get prepaid envelopes from the Jobcentre for sending medical
certs to the BDC.

5. The above will ensure that you are paid ESA at the basic rate, ie without
the component rate until your appeal is heard.

----------------------------------------------------
And thats about it, that covers just about everything you need to do to
appeal. Now your legal adviser can put your appeal together ready to send it
to tribunal, s/he may also ask your doctor to write a letter explaining how
your illness affects you. The more evidence you have the better. As you can
see there is not a lot to it. It is really easy to appeal.

All you have to do now is wait for a tribunal date, you do not have to
attend the tribunal but always tick the box saying you will attend. Some say
it is better to attend, my own personal experience has shown you do not need
to attend if all the above info is made available, thats more than enough
evidence for any tribunal to make a decision.

I could even shorten this guide a bit more ;) Failed medical, submit GL24,
see legal adviser, keep sending medical certs in as usual, job done. The
rest is up to the bureaucrats. ;)