Sick notes and depression

[Cesc Fabregas]

My GP gave me a two week sick note for depression. Then I applied for
ESA. Do I have to keep on asking a new sick note once the old one
expires or do I have to wait for the DWP to ask me for a new one?

[Robbie]

Post by Cesc Fabregas
My GP gave me a two week sick note for depression. Then I applied for
ESA. Do I have to keep on asking a new sick note once the old one
expires or do I have to wait for the DWP to ask me for a new one?

You need to get a sick note as soon as the old one is to expire. If you
don't you run the risk of your ESA stopping. There's always the
possibility that any letter from the DWP could be held up in the massive
postal backlog large parts of the country have at present.

[Niteawk]

Post by Cesc Fabregas
My GP gave me a two week sick note for depression. Then I applied for
ESA. Do I have to keep on asking a new sick note once the old one
expires or do I have to wait for the DWP to ask me for a new one?

2 weeks FFS, that is no good for someone who is claiming ESA, you need a
cert to cover you for the period pending treatment your GP should have
referred you for. It can take months just to get an appointment to see a
specialist, and you don't know how much time they are going to spend
treating you.

GP's must write a cert out for at least 3 months, otherwise your claim will
keep starting and stopping. Then there is the amount of time it takes the
BDC to process each new cert. Plus you will have to keep making appointments
to see your GP every 5 minutes, this is not acceptable or appropiate in your
circumstances, I am sure your GP will see sense once you explain you can't
live without money with all this is going on.

Lets not forget also, everything shuts down over xmas. Demand a cert for at
least 3 months for this reason alone.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by Niteawk

Post by Cesc Fabregas
My GP gave me a two week sick note for depression. Then I applied for
ESA. Do I have to keep on asking a new sick note once the old one
expires or do I have to wait for the DWP to ask me for a new one?

2 weeks FFS, that is no good for someone who is claiming ESA, you need a
cert to cover you for the period pending treatment your GP should have
referred you for. It can take months just to get an appointment to see a
specialist, and you don't know how much time they are going to spend
treating you.
GP's must write a cert out for at least 3 months, otherwise your claim will
keep starting and stopping. Then there is the amount of time it takes the
BDC to process each new cert. Plus you will have to keep making appointments
to see your GP every 5 minutes, this is not acceptable or appropiate in your
circumstances, I am sure your GP will see sense once you explain you can't
live without money with all this is going on.
Lets not forget also, everything shuts down over xmas. Demand a cert for at
least 3 months for this reason alone.

Demanding things of a medical professional?
Wow, how to avoid getting what you want.

Not all doctors are so incompetent that they want to avoid seeing how
someone is coping over time until more specialised help is provided.
How are tablets working? Any problems? Does dosage need increasing or
decreasing? Or try different tablets.
How about condition thats diagnosed? Better? Worse?

Suprisingly the NHS seems to take the view that with the correct
medication, people are better able to manage to live a 'normal' life.
That can include working - some take very little time off work sick.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:15f0c513-7809-42cf-acb4-***@21g2000prv.googlegroups.com...
Demanding things of a medical professional?
Wow, how to avoid getting what you want.

Martin <><

___________________________________________
Giving a patient, who has to rely on ESA to live, a cert for 2 weeks amounts
to medical negligence and shows gross incompetence IMO. If you have
explained the following, that is.

For starters there is the time it takes to get an appointment to see your
GP, then there is the long and drawn out way the ESA system works.

You have to post certs to the BDC to get payment, this can take Royal Mail
several days. Then you have to wait for the BDC's internal mail system to
send it to what you hope is the right dept, assuming the cert is not lost by
RM or the BDC in the meantime.

There is always the danger that a cert can be lost, usually by the BDC, even
when it has been logged but they are unable to find it so you have to get a
copy, so the whole rigmarole must be repeated.

Once the BDC has your cert, it takes them on average 10 days to process it,
then they issue payment which takes a few more days to clear in your bank
account.

You must realise that GP's probably know nothing about the benefit system so
you really have to inform them or they will keep writing you certs for 2
weeks.
Then again if they have any patients like me, chances are they are budding
benefit experts. ;)

But you really need to explain the above to avoid having to go for long
periods without money to live on. Due to the protracted nature of the
system, I am sure your GP will agree that a cert for 2 weeks is simply not
tenable.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Demanding things of a medical professional?
Wow, how to avoid getting what you want.
Martin  <><
___________________________________________
Giving a patient, who has to rely on ESA to live, a cert for 2 weeks amounts
to medical negligence and shows gross incompetence IMO. If you have
explained the following, that is.
For starters there is the time it takes to get an appointment to see your
GP, then there is the long and drawn out way the ESA system works.
You have to post certs to the BDC to get payment, this can take Royal Mail
several days. Then you have to wait for the BDC's internal mail system to
send it to what you hope is the right dept, assuming the cert is not lost by
RM or the BDC in the meantime.
There is always the danger that a cert can be lost, usually by the BDC, even
when it has been logged but they are unable to find it so you have to get a
copy, so the whole rigmarole must be repeated.
Once the BDC has your cert, it takes them on average 10 days to process it,
then they issue payment which takes a few more days to clear in your bank
account.
You must realise that GP's probably know nothing about the benefit system so
you really have to inform them or they will keep writing you certs for 2
weeks.
Then again if they have any patients like me, chances are they are budding
benefit experts. ;)
But you really need to explain the above to avoid having to go for long
periods without money to live on. Due to the protracted nature of the
system, I am sure your GP will agree that a cert for 2 weeks is simply not
tenable.

Funny really, I can book a GP appointment for up to 3 weeks after my
current one while I'm at the surgery.
I say 'can I have an appointment with Dr ....... for the 31st and if
they are in and there's a slot free, I get one there and then.

Its called planning. Means people don't have to wait days for an
appointment, they can plan one for when its convenient.
Your surgery will offer the same service of advance planning of
appointments.

As for taking time - yes, it happens. It happens whether you send a
week, a fortnight, a month or 3 months sick note.
The purpose of the doctor isn't however to provide you with sick
notes, their purpose is to try and get you well. Without a sick note,
will you be going back to see them when they want you to?

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:268eb3af-3c8c-41fc-a656-***@j29g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Funny really, I can book a GP appointment for up to 3 weeks after my
current one while I'm at the surgery.
Martin <><

_________________________________________
We all know you live in cloud cuckoo land and what applies to you does not
apply to the universe and beyond. My GP works part time, it is almost
impossible to get an appointment when I actually need one and the staff at
my medical centre do not allow people to make appointments more than 2 weeks
in advance. So to see my GP takes a minimum of 2 weeks, and can take up to a
month if the 2 week window is full, which it often is.

Another little rule that screws things up for ESA claimants is, the BDC do
not send out renewal letters until the last minute, so any planning in
advance is a waste of time because you have to wait for that letter with the
prepaid return envelope and standard form you have to sign to arrive, if the
renewal letter does not arrive you have to ring the BDC to ask for one, plus
GP's do not or will not issue medical certs in advance. More good reasons
why issuing certs for 2 weeks is a pointless exercise.

The only practical thing you can do is make sure your GP understands that a
cert for 2 weeks is going to create more problems than it solves. Ideally
you need a cert for 6 months so you don't have to constantly worry about
having no money coming in, while the pending sham Atos medical looms with
the inevitable appeal which can take more than a year to get to tribunal.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Funny really, I can book a GP appointment for up to 3 weeks after my
current one while I'm at the surgery.
Martin  <><
_________________________________________
We all know you live in cloud cuckoo land and what applies to you does not
apply to the universe and beyond. My GP works part time, it is almost
impossible to get an appointment when I actually need one and the staff at
my medical centre do not allow people to make appointments more than 2 weeks
in advance. So to see my GP takes a minimum of 2 weeks, and can take up to a
month if the 2 week window is full, which it often is.
Another little rule that screws things up for ESA claimants is, the BDC do
not send out renewal letters until the last minute, so any planning in
advance is a waste of time because you have to wait for that letter with the
prepaid return envelope and standard form you have to sign to arrive, if the
renewal letter does not arrive you have to ring the BDC to ask for one, plus
GP's do not or will not issue medical certs in advance. More good reasons
why issuing certs for 2 weeks is a pointless exercise.
The only practical thing you can do is make sure your GP understands that a
cert for 2 weeks is going to create more problems than it solves. Ideally
you need a cert for 6 months so you don't have to constantly worry about
having no money coming in, while the pending sham Atos medical looms with
the inevitable appeal which can take more than a year to get to tribunal.

Hey, my GP works part time too. Lots of mothers do.
If I need a quick appointment I can normally see one of the other 9
doctors in the surgery, some of whom are also part time. But for
planned visits, I always see my own doctor.

Sounds like your local NHS trust needs to sort out your local surgery.
You have a far worse wait than most people.
Unless my doctor is on holiday, these days I can normally get in
within 2 days. Can usually see someone the same day if willing to
accept another doctor.
Or the local NHS walk in centre in the nearby town - or one near the
university if I'm in that day - will see me with only a short wait
(never waited more than half an hour). And available weekends too.
We don't lack for medical help around here. Maybe you need to get onto
your MP about the shameful standards of medical care locally compared
to other areas of the country.

Gosh, they don't send out renewal letters until last minute. Again,
planning. Your planning.
Maybe the BDC staff are more used to doctors surgeries like mine than
like yours.
As for issuing med certs in advance - why would they? May be a
pointless exercise for you, this issuing for 2 weeks at a time, but is
it pointless for the doctor?
Will you see them regularly if they don't give a reason to come in?

Love your idea of a 6 month sick note. One way to come across to the
doctor as a workshy whinger.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:bf506cec-d2b5-4533-a9c6-***@f21g2000prn.googlegroups.com...

Love your idea of a 6 month sick note. One way to come across to the
doctor as a workshy whinger.

Martin <><

__________________________________________
So now planning ahead which you keep banging on about means work shy! Isn't
that a medical problem in its own right? My main objective is to avoid
problems with ESA payments, I have no qualms about asking my GP to sign me
off for as long as possible. If you are looking for excuses, blame the
system.The way the system works it is actually responsible for keeping
people on the sick. Once you enter it, thats it, you are stuck with it. If
you sign off the sick to claim JSA, that can result in losing several weeks
ESA money, something your average benefit claimant cannot afford .

And signing on for JSA creates its own problems when you are not fit for
work, technically you are not entitled to JSA unless you can do ALL types of
work, as soon as you say you can't do a job because of your health, you are
sanctioned. And under the new rules, you could be sanctioned for a very long
time. So no matter what happens, I personally can never sign off the sick
because I can't do warehouse type work that involves heavy lifting, loading
and unloading etc. This happens to be the only type of work my local JC has
to offer.

What I find strange about all this is how the DWP are willing to accept a
claim for JSA from a person who has been signed off "unfit for work" when
that is clearly against the law. The DWP is saying they want people to lie
to claim JSA. The government in this country has no shame trying to corrupt
innocent ESA claimants like me, rest assured I will not take part in any DWP
fraud.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Love your idea of a 6 month sick note. One way to come across to the
doctor as a workshy whinger.
Martin  <><
__________________________________________
So now planning ahead which you keep banging on about means work shy! Isn't
that a medical problem in its own right? My main objective is to avoid
problems with ESA payments, I have no qualms about asking my GP to sign me
off for as long as possible. If you are looking for excuses, blame the
system.The way the system works it is actually responsible for keeping
people on the sick. Once you enter it, thats it, you are stuck with it. If
you sign off the sick to claim JSA, that can result in losing several weeks
ESA money, something your average benefit claimant cannot afford .
And signing on for JSA creates its own problems when you are not fit for
work, technically you are not entitled to JSA unless you can do ALL types of
work, as soon as you say you can't do a job because of your health, you are
sanctioned. And under the new rules, you could be sanctioned for a very long
time. So no matter what happens, I personally can never sign off the sick
because I can't do warehouse type work that involves heavy lifting, loading
and unloading etc. This happens to be the only type of work my local JC has
to offer.
What I find strange about all this is how the DWP are willing to accept a
claim for JSA from a person who has been signed off "unfit for work" when
that is clearly against the law. The DWP is saying they want people to lie
to claim JSA. The government in this country has no shame trying to corrupt
innocent ESA claimants like me, rest assured I will not take part in any DWP
fraud.

LOL.
No, planning ahead means you get the appointment when it suits you,
not having to wait days or weeks.
Yes, we know what your main objective is. For which I pity you.
And even blaming the system for keeping people on the sick? Way to go
on avoiding any responsibility there.....

Like you I can't do heavy lifting, loading or unloading. Not even
allowed to drive a forklift anymore either.
Move up to my area - we have warehouse work but its a tiny fraction of
the jobs on offer. Lot more common to find office work, shop work,
assembly work, cleaning, bar, or security work.
Seems strange that the only work in your area advertised in the
jobcentre is warehouse.

And one thing you aren't is an innocent ESA claimant. If you feel the
DWP is committing fraud, take it up with the courts and the police.
Or is this just a fantasy of yours and no basis in reality?

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:c02c791f-cb01-4d03-a5c0-***@c2g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
And one thing you aren't is an innocent ESA claimant. If you feel the
DWP is committing fraud, take it up with the courts and the police.
Or is this just a fantasy of yours and no basis in reality?

Martin <><

________________________________________
I think we all know by now that the DWP is corrupt operating disability
denial factories. Thousands of claimants who are disabled and terminally
ill, have had months of treatment and surgery and still under the care of
NHS surgeons and GPs are ordered to attend ATOS medical assessments only to
be declared fit for work when clearly they are not. The DWP and ATOS are
contradicting professional medical evidence to facilitate this fraud.

It would be nice if you could take them to court, but the way the system
operates prevents that, you must follow their appeals process. When you have
a strong case against them that could force a change in the law if it went
for judicial review, they award ESA to prevent that from happening. Then
they repeat the same process of denial all over again in the hope that you
will eventually give up.

I have come to expect this deceitful conduct by the DWP as part of the
claims process, so I am not surprised when it happens. You must not give up
if you want to claim ESA. Actually I think they should include that last
sentence on their leaflets. Don't give up or your payments will stop.

Apply, appeal, apply, appeal, apply, appeal, thats how it works. ;)

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And one thing you aren't is an innocent ESA claimant. If you feel the
DWP is committing fraud, take it up with the courts and the police.
Or is this just a fantasy of yours and no basis in reality?
Martin  <><
________________________________________
I think we all know by now that the DWP is corrupt operating disability
denial factories. Thousands of claimants who are disabled and terminally
ill, have had months of treatment and surgery and still under the care of
NHS surgeons and GPs are ordered to attend ATOS medical assessments only to
be declared fit for work when clearly they are not. The DWP and ATOS are
contradicting professional medical evidence to facilitate this fraud.
It would be nice if you could take them to court, but the way the system
operates prevents that, you must follow their appeals process. When you have
a strong case against them that could force a change in the law if it went
for judicial review, they award ESA to prevent that from happening. Then
they repeat the same process of denial all over again in the hope that you
will eventually give up.
I have come to expect this deceitful conduct by the DWP as part of the
claims process, so I am not surprised when it happens. You must not give up
if you want to claim ESA. Actually I think they should include that last
sentence on their leaflets. Don't give up or your payments will stop.
Apply, appeal, apply, appeal, apply, appeal, thats how it works. ;)

I've been dealing with the DWP for years, for myself or family
members.
And haven't had a fraction of the trouble you have. Maybe its because
I'm more lovable. :)

And unlike you, I don't see the DWP as corrupt. Inefficient maybe,
badly organised even - but not corrupt.
Your issue with ATOS seems to be an issue with the legislation and the
company hired to do the assessment.

Martin <><

[firemonkey]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And one thing you aren't is an innocent ESA claimant. If you feel the
DWP is committing fraud, take it up with the courts and the police.
Or is this just a fantasy of yours and no basis in reality?
Martin<><
________________________________________
I think we all know by now that the DWP is corrupt operating disability
denial factories. Thousands of claimants who are disabled and terminally
ill, have had months of treatment and surgery and still under the care of
NHS surgeons and GPs are ordered to attend ATOS medical assessments only to
be declared fit for work when clearly they are not. The DWP and ATOS are
contradicting professional medical evidence to facilitate this fraud.
It would be nice if you could take them to court, but the way the system
operates prevents that, you must follow their appeals process. When you have
a strong case against them that could force a change in the law if it went
for judicial review, they award ESA to prevent that from happening. Then
they repeat the same process of denial all over again in the hope that you
will eventually give up.
I have come to expect this deceitful conduct by the DWP as part of the
claims process, so I am not surprised when it happens. You must not give up
if you want to claim ESA. Actually I think they should include that last
sentence on their leaflets. Don't give up or your payments will stop.
Apply, appeal, apply, appeal, apply, appeal, thats how it works. ;)

I've been dealing with the DWP for years, for myself or family
members.
And haven't had a fraction of the trouble you have. Maybe its because
I'm more lovable. :)
And unlike you, I don't see the DWP as corrupt. Inefficient maybe,
badly organised even - but not corrupt.
Your issue with ATOS seems to be an issue with the legislation and the
company hired to do the assessment.
Martin<><

Putting people in WRAG who have little realistic hope of getting
employment, or worse still on JSA ,to save money, is corrupt in my opinion.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And one thing you aren't is an innocent ESA claimant. If you feel the
DWP is committing fraud, take it up with the courts and the police.
Or is this just a fantasy of yours and no basis in reality?
Martin<><
________________________________________
I think we all know by now that the DWP is corrupt operating disability
denial factories. Thousands of claimants who are disabled and terminally
ill, have had months of treatment and surgery and still under the care of
NHS surgeons and GPs are ordered to attend ATOS medical assessments only to
be declared fit for work when clearly they are not. The DWP and ATOS are
contradicting professional medical evidence to facilitate this fraud.
It would be nice if you could take them to court, but the way the system
operates prevents that, you must follow their appeals process. When you have
a strong case against them that could force a change in the law if it went
for judicial review, they award ESA to prevent that from happening. Then
they repeat the same process of denial all over again in the hope that you
will eventually give up.
I have come to expect this deceitful conduct by the DWP as part of the
claims process, so I am not surprised when it happens. You must not give up
if you want to claim ESA. Actually I think they should include that last
sentence on their leaflets. Don't give up or your payments will stop.
Apply, appeal, apply, appeal, apply, appeal, thats how it works. ;)

I've been dealing with the DWP for years, for myself or family
members.
And haven't had a fraction of the trouble you have. Maybe its because
I'm more lovable.  :)
And unlike you, I don't see the DWP as corrupt. Inefficient maybe,
badly organised even - but not corrupt.
Your issue with ATOS seems to be an issue with the legislation and the
company hired to do the assessment.
Martin<><

Putting people  in  WRAG who have little realistic hope of getting
employment, or worse still on JSA ,to save money, is corrupt in my opinion.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

WRAG? Not sure I follow what you are saying. Can you expand on those
initials, the only WRAG I can think of disbanded years ago.

Little hope of getting employment? Thats up to them - there are many
disabled people who do work. Chances of finding a job are slimmer, not
non-existant. Some people can make themselves more employable.
Moving people from one benefit to another, government has been doing
that for years. Used to be moving them from JSA to incapacity benefit
to take them off the books.
Not sure how saving money on the welfare bill is corruption. They
don't get less than unemployed people.

Martin <><

[firemonkey]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by firemonkey

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And one thing you aren't is an innocent ESA claimant. If you feel the
DWP is committing fraud, take it up with the courts and the police.
Or is this just a fantasy of yours and no basis in reality?
Martin<><
________________________________________
I think we all know by now that the DWP is corrupt operating disability
denial factories. Thousands of claimants who are disabled and terminally
ill, have had months of treatment and surgery and still under the care of
NHS surgeons and GPs are ordered to attend ATOS medical assessments only to
be declared fit for work when clearly they are not. The DWP and ATOS are
contradicting professional medical evidence to facilitate this fraud.
It would be nice if you could take them to court, but the way the system
operates prevents that, you must follow their appeals process. When you have
a strong case against them that could force a change in the law if it went
for judicial review, they award ESA to prevent that from happening. Then
they repeat the same process of denial all over again in the hope that you
will eventually give up.
I have come to expect this deceitful conduct by the DWP as part of the
claims process, so I am not surprised when it happens. You must not give up
if you want to claim ESA. Actually I think they should include that last
sentence on their leaflets. Don't give up or your payments will stop.
Apply, appeal, apply, appeal, apply, appeal, thats how it works. ;)

I've been dealing with the DWP for years, for myself or family
members.
And haven't had a fraction of the trouble you have. Maybe its because
I'm more lovable. :)
And unlike you, I don't see the DWP as corrupt. Inefficient maybe,
badly organised even - but not corrupt.
Your issue with ATOS seems to be an issue with the legislation and the
company hired to do the assessment.
Martin<><

Putting people in WRAG who have little realistic hope of getting
employment, or worse still on JSA ,to save money, is corrupt in my opinion.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

WRAG? Not sure I follow what you are saying. Can you expand on those
initials, the only WRAG I can think of disbanded years ago.

Work Related Activity Group. Chances of anyone employing you are very
slim if you have a very patchy or non existent CV.
It's one thing to be told you are fit for work by a process designed to
assess as many people as possible as fit for work. It's quite another
for an employer to want to employ you if your CV is patchy/non existent
and you suffer from a long term severe mental illness.



The chances of my getting a job i could hold down without risking
worsening my symptoms,that left me no worse off than i am now
financially,are very slim indeed.

My ability to work is rated as severe ie Able to carry out light
sheltered work in structured, supported setting (e.g. gardening,
sweeping, washing up).
Unfortunately a lot of sheltered work shops have been closed down in
favour of pushing people into full time competitive employment.

For me being able to contribute something part time in a safe/non
competitive/minimally stressful environment would potentially be a good
thing.
It would be even better if i actually got help for the issues/problems
that act as a barrier to my coping in an effective and sustained manner
within a working environment.
Unfortunately giving me such help was deemed superfluous as i was told
that work was not a viable option for someone with my then current
diagnosis.
Nowadays there has been a complete turn around in thinking with it being
held, quite unrealistically, that virtually nothing serves as a barrier
to getting and holding down a job.
Current thinking is that after a quick course of CBT one will be fully
equipped to deal with employment. That might hold true for mental health
problems lying on the milder end of the spectrum but it is not true for
people with chronic, long term, severe mental health problems,
who need a lot more help and support than that to be in a position to
cope with work in an effective and sustained manner.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by firemonkey

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And one thing you aren't is an innocent ESA claimant. If you feel the
DWP is committing fraud, take it up with the courts and the police.
Or is this just a fantasy of yours and no basis in reality?
Martin<><
________________________________________
I think we all know by now that the DWP is corrupt operating disability
denial factories. Thousands of claimants who are disabled and terminally
ill, have had months of treatment and surgery and still under the care of
NHS surgeons and GPs are ordered to attend ATOS medical assessments only to
be declared fit for work when clearly they are not. The DWP and ATOS are
contradicting professional medical evidence to facilitate this fraud.
It would be nice if you could take them to court, but the way the system
operates prevents that, you must follow their appeals process. When you have
a strong case against them that could force a change in the law if it went
for judicial review, they award ESA to prevent that from happening. Then
they repeat the same process of denial all over again in the hope that you
will eventually give up.
I have come to expect this deceitful conduct by the DWP as part of the
claims process, so I am not surprised when it happens. You must not give up
if you want to claim ESA. Actually I think they should include that last
sentence on their leaflets. Don't give up or your payments will stop.
Apply, appeal, apply, appeal, apply, appeal, thats how it works. ;)

I've been dealing with the DWP for years, for myself or family
members.
And haven't had a fraction of the trouble you have. Maybe its because
I'm more lovable.  :)
And unlike you, I don't see the DWP as corrupt. Inefficient maybe,
badly organised even - but not corrupt.
Your issue with ATOS seems to be an issue with the legislation and the
company hired to do the assessment.
Martin<><

Putting people  in  WRAG who have little realistic hope of getting
employment, or worse still on JSA ,to save money, is corrupt in my opinion.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

WRAG? Not sure I follow what you are saying. Can you expand on those
initials, the only WRAG I can think of disbanded years ago.

Work Related Activity Group. Chances of anyone employing you are very
slim if you have a very patchy or non existent CV.
It's one thing to be told you are fit for work by a process designed to
assess as many people as possible as fit for work. It's quite another
for an employer to want to employ you if your CV is patchy/non existent
and you suffer from a long term severe mental illness.
The chances of my getting a job i could hold down without risking
worsening my symptoms,that left me no worse off than i am now
financially,are very slim indeed.
My ability to work is rated as severe ie Able to carry out light
sheltered work in structured, supported setting (e.g. gardening,
sweeping, washing up).
Unfortunately a lot of sheltered work shops have been closed down in
favour of pushing people into full time competitive employment.
For me being able to contribute something part time in a safe/non
competitive/minimally stressful environment would potentially be a good
thing.
It would be even better if i actually got help for the issues/problems
that act as a barrier to my coping in an effective and sustained manner
within a working environment.
Unfortunately giving me such help was deemed superfluous as i was told
that work was not a viable option for someone with my then current
diagnosis.
Nowadays there has been a complete turn around in thinking with it being
held, quite unrealistically, that virtually nothing serves as a barrier
to getting and holding down a job.
Current thinking is that after a quick course of CBT  one will be fully
equipped to deal with employment. That might hold true for mental health
problems lying on the milder end of the spectrum but it is not true for
people with chronic, long term, severe mental health problems,
who need a lot more help and support than that to be in a  position to
cope with work in an effective and sustained manner.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Ah yes, the good old 'patchy CV' excuse.
And yet people still do get jobs. Seen it myself, with some of the
more extreme members of society.
Locally I can think of only 3 dual-diagnosis (drugs and mental health
or alcohol and mental health) ex-homeless, long term incapacity
benefit claimants who have got jobs in the past couple of years. Those
are the more extreme people, plenty of others have also got jobs but
don't need anything like the same kind of support.
Patchy CV makes it harder, doesn't make it impossible.

Some people have barriers in place not of their own choosing. Others
impose their own barriers that can, in time, be altered.
A lot does depend on the support available - support thats easier to
obtain in larger or close knit companies than in smaller, less
sociable companies.
But all the support in the world can't do anything about a barrier
that cannot be changed. Doesn't mean there is no work that can be done
however.

Martin <><

[firemonkey]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Ah yes, the good old 'patchy CV' excuse.

Only an ill informed reactionary would call it an 'excuse'.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by firemonkey

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Ah yes, the good old 'patchy CV' excuse.

Only an ill informed reactionary would call it an 'excuse'.

Or someone who has heard it used as an excuse for nto doing something
many, many times.

Martin <><

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by firemonkey

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And one thing you aren't is an innocent ESA claimant. If you feel the
DWP is committing fraud, take it up with the courts and the police.
Or is this just a fantasy of yours and no basis in reality?
Martin<><
________________________________________
I think we all know by now that the DWP is corrupt operating disability
denial factories. Thousands of claimants who are disabled and terminally
ill, have had months of treatment and surgery and still under the care of
NHS surgeons and GPs are ordered to attend ATOS medical assessments only to
be declared fit for work when clearly they are not. The DWP and ATOS are
contradicting professional medical evidence to facilitate this fraud.
It would be nice if you could take them to court, but the way the system
operates prevents that, you must follow their appeals process. When you have
a strong case against them that could force a change in the law if it went
for judicial review, they award ESA to prevent that from happening. Then
they repeat the same process of denial all over again in the hope that you
will eventually give up.
I have come to expect this deceitful conduct by the DWP as part of the
claims process, so I am not surprised when it happens. You must not give up
if you want to claim ESA. Actually I think they should include that last
sentence on their leaflets. Don't give up or your payments will stop.
Apply, appeal, apply, appeal, apply, appeal, thats how it works. ;)

I've been dealing with the DWP for years, for myself or family
members.
And haven't had a fraction of the trouble you have. Maybe its because
I'm more lovable.  :)
And unlike you, I don't see the DWP as corrupt. Inefficient maybe,
badly organised even - but not corrupt.
Your issue with ATOS seems to be an issue with the legislation and the
company hired to do the assessment.
Martin<><

Putting people  in  WRAG who have little realistic hope of getting
employment, or worse still on JSA ,to save money, is corrupt in my opinion.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

WRAG? Not sure I follow what you are saying. Can you expand on those
initials, the only WRAG I can think of disbanded years ago.

Work Related Activity Group. Chances of anyone employing you are very
slim if you have a very patchy or non existent CV.
It's one thing to be told you are fit for work by a process designed to
assess as many people as possible as fit for work. It's quite another
for an employer to want to employ you if your CV is patchy/non existent
and you suffer from a long term severe mental illness.
The chances of my getting a job i could hold down without risking
worsening my symptoms,that left me no worse off than i am now
financially,are very slim indeed.
My ability to work is rated as severe ie Able to carry out light
sheltered work in structured, supported setting (e.g. gardening,
sweeping, washing up).
Unfortunately a lot of sheltered work shops have been closed down in
favour of pushing people into full time competitive employment.
For me being able to contribute something part time in a safe/non
competitive/minimally stressful environment would potentially be a good
thing.
It would be even better if i actually got help for the issues/problems
that act as a barrier to my coping in an effective and sustained manner
within a working environment.
Unfortunately giving me such help was deemed superfluous as i was told
that work was not a viable option for someone with my then current
diagnosis.
Nowadays there has been a complete turn around in thinking with it being
held, quite unrealistically, that virtually nothing serves as a barrier
to getting and holding down a job.
Current thinking is that after a quick course of CBT  one will be fully
equipped to deal with employment. That might hold true for mental health
problems lying on the milder end of the spectrum but it is not true for
people with chronic, long term, severe mental health problems,
who need a lot more help and support than that to be in a  position to
cope with work in an effective and sustained manner.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Just out of interest, have you ever considered working for yourself?
Learning to make something then selling it, or learning how to market
a skill you already have.
My wife and I are both disabled, both full time carers as well as
working.
We both like making things, so we set up a business to do just that.
So far we've made some great stuff, had decent turnover and had fun
doing it.
And we make money.

No-one to say 'you can't do this because you are disabled', no-one
else but us are the bosses. Plenty of help and support - including
from our local university who are running a tax seminar in January.
Running a business isn't for everyone but we've found it great fun.
Even dealing with VAT and ordering from elsewhere in the EU.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ed348101-ad84-487f-9665-***@z17g2000prz.googlegroups.com...

Your issue with ATOS seems to be an issue with the legislation and the
company hired to do the assessment.

Martin <><

___________________________
What legislation is that? legislation that allows unregistered foreign
nurses to call NHS surgeons and GP's liars, assessing health conditions with
a computer program and asking questions that has nothing to do with having a
real job. Saying you are physically fit if you can pick up a pen etc.

Its only a matter of time before the law catches up like it did in the USA,
Atos was fined $31.7 million and banned from operating in several states.

.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Your issue with ATOS seems to be an issue with the legislation and the
company hired to do the assessment.
Martin  <><
___________________________
What legislation is that? legislation that allows unregistered foreign
nurses to call NHS surgeons and GP's liars, assessing health conditions with
a computer program and asking questions that has nothing to do with having a
real job. Saying you are physically fit if you can pick up a pen etc.
Its only a matter of time before the law catches up like it did in the USA,
Atos was fined $31.7 million and banned from operating in several states.
.

But are they calling them liars? A diagnosis by a GP or consultant and
an assessment form completed by a nurse are two entirely different
things.
As for legislation - that would presumably the legislation that allows
you to be paid ESA.

What need is there for questions involving a real job? To cover all
jobs would take days for each person.
What you end up getting is generalisation - questions that cover
certain general aspects only. Common in our society - used by
government, industry, insurance, police and so on.

If you can pick up a pen you can pick up other items. If you had bad
arthritis in your hands you may be unable to pick up a pen - but would
also have difficulty picking up many other items.
They don't need to run through what you can and cannot pick up.
Generalisation.

As for the law catching up with Atos - for what reason? What crime
have they committed?
The fact you don't agree with them isn't a crime.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:eeb5a893-2da8-46be-95b0-***@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com...

As for the law catching up with Atos - for what reason? What crime
have they committed?
The fact you don't agree with them isn't a crime.

Martin <><

__________________________________________
You keep making stupid comments, what part of "Atos being fined $31.7
million" do you not understand?.

[Richard Perkin]

Post by Niteawk
You keep making stupid comments, what part of "Atos being fined
$31.7 million" do you not understand?.

Err... I believe you may be referring to UnumProvident, now Unum
Group. To the best of my knowledge, Atos Origin has not been fined
such a sum.

The sum of $31.7million was not a fine either, but jury-awarded
damages in a lawsuit from an eye surgeon back in 2003. I understand
the sum was reduced to $5million on appeal. Unum offers disability
insurance - it didn't pay out on legitimate claims.

Kind regards

[Niteawk]

Post by Richard Perkin

Post by Niteawk
You keep making stupid comments, what part of "Atos being fined
$31.7 million" do you not understand?.

Err... I believe you may be referring to UnumProvident, now Unum
Group. To the best of my knowledge, Atos Origin has not been fined
such a sum.
The sum of $31.7million was not a fine either, but jury-awarded
damages in a lawsuit from an eye surgeon back in 2003. I understand
the sum was reduced to $5million on appeal. Unum offers disability
insurance - it didn't pay out on legitimate claims.

I am not sure of the exact ins and outs. Professor Mansell Aylward director
of Unum and ex head of DWP, deals with Atos complaints that reach the
Independent Tier. They are all in it together, and responsible for creating
the ESA regime.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
As for the law catching up with Atos - for what reason? What crime
have they committed?
The fact you don't agree with them isn't a crime.
Martin  <><
__________________________________________
You keep making stupid comments, what part of "Atos being fined $31.7
million" do you not understand?.

Companies can be fined for many reasons - including not meeting agreed
targets, internal breaches of data, damage, contract breach and so on.
This is a fine in America, the land of the lawsuit. Look up the Stella
Awards sometime for companies that have been fined for rather odd
things.

So, in the UK, what crime has Atos committed? Forget what they've been
fined elsewhere, its irrelevent here. What crime under what law could
they be done for here?

Martin <><

[humble.life]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com
As for the law catching up with Atos - for what reason? What crime
have they committed?
The fact you don't agree with them isn't a crime.
Martin<><
__________________________________________
You keep making stupid comments, what part of "Atos being fined $31.7
million" do you not understand?.

Companies can be fined for many reasons - including not meeting agreed
targets, internal breaches of data, damage, contract breach and so on.
This is a fine in America, the land of the lawsuit. Look up the Stella
Awards sometime for companies that have been fined for rather odd
things.
So, in the UK, what crime has Atos committed? Forget what they've been
fined elsewhere, its irrelevent here. What crime under what law could
they be done for here?
Martin<><

ignoring medical data, leading to suicide attempts

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com
As for the law catching up with Atos - for what reason? What crime
have they committed?
The fact you don't agree with them isn't a crime.
Martin<><
__________________________________________
You keep making stupid comments, what part of "Atos being fined $31.7
million" do you not understand?.

Companies can be fined for many reasons - including not meeting agreed
targets, internal breaches of data, damage, contract breach and so on.
This is a fine in America, the land of the lawsuit. Look up the Stella
Awards sometime for companies that have been fined for rather odd
things.
So, in the UK, what crime has Atos committed? Forget what they've been
fined elsewhere, its irrelevent here. What crime under what law could
they be done for here?
Martin<><

ignoring medical data, leading to suicide attempts- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Are they ignoring it? Or are they completing a totally different
assessment form?
Don't forget, the ones deciding issues won't be Atos. Don't confuse
the company with the civil service.

As for suicide attempts - last I looked, exams have been known to
cause such things too. Exams don't seem to have been banned for
students or children.
Divorce has been known to lead to suicide attempts - again, divorce
hasn't been banned.

Martin <><

[humble.life]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com
As for the law catching up with Atos - for what reason? What crime
have they committed?
The fact you don't agree with them isn't a crime.
Martin<><
__________________________________________
You keep making stupid comments, what part of "Atos being fined $31.7
million" do you not understand?.

Companies can be fined for many reasons - including not meeting agreed
targets, internal breaches of data, damage, contract breach and so on.
This is a fine in America, the land of the lawsuit. Look up the Stella
Awards sometime for companies that have been fined for rather odd
things.
So, in the UK, what crime has Atos committed? Forget what they've been
fined elsewhere, its irrelevent here. What crime under what law could
they be done for here?
Martin<><

ignoring medical data, leading to suicide attempts- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Are they ignoring it? Or are they completing a totally different
assessment form?
Don't forget, the ones deciding issues won't be Atos. Don't confuse
the company with the civil service.

it's up to Atos to collate the info. it's up to the civil service to
review it, indeed.

Post by m***@hotmail.com
As for suicide attempts - last I looked, exams have been known to
cause such things too. Exams don't seem to have been banned for
students or children.
Divorce has been known to lead to suicide attempts - again, divorce
hasn't been banned.
Martin<><

they are ignoring medical data, as everyone does with mental health.

it's one of those things that people don't believe in until they
themselves experience it. this is the problem with Freud, grandson
Freud that is, he doesn't believe in experiences he's never had and
assumes that 1000's of people are not really ill.

he'll be protected from the problems he causes. much like Atos and the
civil service. such is the effect.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com
As for the law catching up with Atos - for what reason? What crime
have they committed?
The fact you don't agree with them isn't a crime.
Martin<><
__________________________________________
You keep making stupid comments, what part of "Atos being fined $31.7
million" do you not understand?.

Companies can be fined for many reasons - including not meeting agreed
targets, internal breaches of data, damage, contract breach and so on.
This is a fine in America, the land of the lawsuit. Look up the Stella
Awards sometime for companies that have been fined for rather odd
things.
So, in the UK, what crime has Atos committed? Forget what they've been
fined elsewhere, its irrelevent here. What crime under what law could
they be done for here?
Martin<><

ignoring medical data, leading to suicide attempts- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Are they ignoring it? Or are they completing a totally different
assessment form?
Don't forget, the ones deciding issues won't be Atos. Don't confuse
the company with the civil service.

it's up to Atos to collate the info.  it's up to the civil service to
review it, indeed.

Post by m***@hotmail.com
As for suicide attempts - last I looked, exams have been known to
cause such things too. Exams don't seem to have been banned for
students or children.
Divorce has been known to lead to suicide attempts - again, divorce
hasn't been banned.
Martin<><

they are ignoring medical data, as everyone does with mental health.
it's one of those things that people don't believe in until they
themselves experience it.  this is the problem with Freud, grandson
Freud that is, he doesn't believe in experiences he's never had and
assumes that 1000's of people are not really ill.
he'll be protected from the problems he causes.  much like Atos and the
civil service.  such is the effect.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Indeed. The civil service have done both great good and great harm
over time.
Not helped by government policies that seem to ignore such things as
evidence, expertise or even reality. :)

Martin <><

[firemonkey]

Post by humble.life

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com
As for the law catching up with Atos - for what reason? What crime
have they committed?
The fact you don't agree with them isn't a crime.
Martin<><
__________________________________________
You keep making stupid comments, what part of "Atos being fined $31.7
million" do you not understand?.

Companies can be fined for many reasons - including not meeting agreed
targets, internal breaches of data, damage, contract breach and so on.
This is a fine in America, the land of the lawsuit. Look up the Stella
Awards sometime for companies that have been fined for rather odd
things.
So, in the UK, what crime has Atos committed? Forget what they've been
fined elsewhere, its irrelevent here. What crime under what law could
they be done for here?
Martin<><

ignoring medical data, leading to suicide attempts

Mart is a reactionary. He won't grasp what you are saying.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by humble.life

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com
As for the law catching up with Atos - for what reason? What crime
have they committed?
The fact you don't agree with them isn't a crime.
Martin<><
__________________________________________
You keep making stupid comments, what part of "Atos being fined $31.7
million" do you not understand?.

Companies can be fined for many reasons - including not meeting agreed
targets, internal breaches of data, damage, contract breach and so on.
This is a fine in America, the land of the lawsuit. Look up the Stella
Awards sometime for companies that have been fined for rather odd
things.
So, in the UK, what crime has Atos committed? Forget what they've been
fined elsewhere, its irrelevent here. What crime under what law could
they be done for here?
Martin<><

ignoring medical data, leading to suicide attempts

Mart is a reactionary. He won't grasp what you are saying.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Label me as you want, doesn't make a difference.
I'll read what you are posting - if you mean something else, don't
expect me to read your mind.

Martin <><

[firemonkey]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Label me as you want, doesn't make a difference.
I'll read what you are posting - if you mean something else, don't
expect me to read your mind.
Martin<><

I have never said i expected you to read my mind. What a silly thing to say.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by firemonkey

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Label me as you want, doesn't make a difference.
I'll read what you are posting - if you mean something else, don't
expect me to read your mind.
Martin<><

I have never said i expected you to read my mind. What a silly thing to say.

"He won't grasp what you are saying" are the words you used.
Up to you to make yourself clear - you may mean something but unless
you type what you mean......

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

Post by firemonkey

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Label me as you want, doesn't make a difference.
I'll read what you are posting - if you mean something else, don't
expect me to read your mind.
Martin<><

I have never said i expected you to read my mind. What a silly thing to say.

"He won't grasp what you are saying" are the words you used.
Up to you to make yourself clear - you may mean something but unless
you type what you mean......

Martin <><

__________________________
I found a picture of you Martin ;)
Loading Image...

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by firemonkey

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Label me as you want, doesn't make a difference.
I'll read what you are posting - if you mean something else, don't
expect me to read your mind.
Martin<><

I have never said i expected you to read my mind. What a silly thing to say.

"He won't grasp what you are saying" are the words you used.
Up to you to make yourself clear - you may mean something but unless
you type what you mean......
Martin  <><
__________________________
I found a picture of you Martin ;)http://jerrywalsh.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/tin-foil-hat.jpg

ROTFLOL!!!
Impressive, but nothing like me.
Outside I'll wear a hat usually - a warm one in winter, a shady one in
summer, due to one of my disabilities. Don't need a hat inside if
temperature is above 16C.
Nice, everyday hats you see around many times in public. Your photo of
yourself is very nice but generally people don't wear such hats in
public.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:105c296e-8762-40a3-b8ee-***@m35g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
So, in the UK, what crime has Atos committed? Forget what they've been
fined elsewhere, its irrelevent here. What crime under what law could
they be done for here?

Martin <><

___________________________________________
If our government was not so corrupt, Atos medical staff would face
prosecution and be struck off for malpractice, if they were actually
registered to begin with.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
So, in the UK, what crime has Atos committed? Forget what they've been
fined elsewhere, its irrelevent here. What crime under what law could
they be done for here?
Martin  <><
___________________________________________
If our government was not so corrupt, Atos medical staff would face
prosecution and be struck off for malpractice, if they were actually
registered to begin with.

Yes, but what crime have they committed to be struck off?
Just saying that what they are doing is illegal doesn't make a
difference.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:9d1e2a85-defe-4239-a93f-***@u3g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...

Yes, but what crime have they committed to be struck off?
Just saying that what they are doing is illegal doesn't make a
difference.

Martin <><

___________________________________________
Malpractice! people like me make allegations of wrong doing in that respect.
Then we have to go through a bent complaints process which usually leads
nowhere. The aim is to try to get your case heard in a court of law. But the
way the law works in respect of ESA, that may never happen when you have to
deal with a legal system that has been designed to prevent ESA payments and
any legal redress you are entitled to.

And as you say, saying that what they are doing is illegal doesn't make any
difference, they get away with it by subverting the law.


.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Yes, but what crime have they committed to be struck off?
Just saying that what they are doing is illegal doesn't make a
difference.
Martin  <><
___________________________________________
Malpractice! people like me make allegations of wrong doing in that respect.
Then we have to go through a bent complaints process which usually leads
nowhere. The aim is to try to get your case heard in a court of law. But the
way the law works in respect of ESA, that may never happen when you have to
deal with a legal system that has been designed to prevent ESA payments and
any legal redress you are entitled to.
And as you say, saying that what they are doing is illegal doesn't make any
difference, they get away with it by subverting the law.
.

Ah, malpractice. And when exactly did the hearing for this malpractice
take place? Was it in a court? Or just in front of the medical
authorities?
An allegation needs to be proved. Or else its simply your opinion, not
a fact.

So, how long have you known this complaints process is 'bent' and what
are you doing about it?

Or is it simply that you disagree with the complaints process?

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:9b3a4fbe-257a-486b-a553-***@m35g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...

Ah, malpractice. And when exactly did the hearing for this malpractice
take place? Was it in a court? Or just in front of the medical
authorities?
An allegation needs to be proved. Or else its simply your opinion, not
a fact.

So, how long have you known this complaints process is 'bent' and what
are you doing about it?

Or is it simply that you disagree with the complaints process?

Martin <><

_______________________________________________
I am doing plenty about it, I have been going through their complaints
process for the last 1 yr 9 mts and counting. I currently have 2 appeals
pending with a third one on the way. I have even defeated them at tribunal
and they are still trying to say I am not entitled to ESA. No system can be
that protracted and convoluted unless it is bent. The DWP is reaching a
point where I could have a legitimate claim for harassment. But then our
bent legal system will refuse legal aid for this because they do not want
the public to know what an absolute shower of cunts they are.

[Robbie]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Ah, malpractice. And when exactly did the hearing for this malpractice
take place? Was it in a court? Or just in front of the medical
authorities?
An allegation needs to be proved. Or else its simply your opinion, not
a fact.
So, how long have you known this complaints process is 'bent' and what
are you doing about it?
Or is it simply that you disagree with the complaints process?
Martin <><
_______________________________________________
I am doing plenty about it, I have been going through their complaints
process for the last 1 yr 9 mts and counting. I currently have 2 appeals
pending with a third one on the way. I have even defeated them at
tribunal and they are still trying to say I am not entitled to ESA. No
system can be that protracted and convoluted unless it is bent. The DWP
is reaching a point where I could have a legitimate claim for
harassment. But then our bent legal system will refuse legal aid for
this because they do not want the public to know what an absolute shower
of cunts they are.

3 appeals on the go? Niteawk, you're doing your best to bring down the
appeals system ;) No wonder there's such a backlog!

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by Robbie

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Ah, malpractice. And when exactly did the hearing for this malpractice
take place? Was it in a court? Or just in front of the medical
authorities?
An allegation needs to be proved. Or else its simply your opinion, not
a fact.
So, how long have you known this complaints process is 'bent' and what
are you doing about it?
Or is it simply that you disagree with the complaints process?
Martin  <><
_______________________________________________
I am doing plenty about it, I have been going through their complaints
process for the last 1 yr 9 mts and counting. I currently have 2 appeals
pending with a third one on the way. I have even defeated them at
tribunal and they are still trying to say I am not entitled to ESA. No
system can be that protracted and convoluted unless it is bent. The DWP
is reaching a point where I could have a legitimate claim for
harassment. But then our bent legal system will refuse legal aid for
this because they do not want the public to know what an absolute shower
of cunts they are.

3 appeals on the go? Niteawk, you're doing your best to bring down the
appeals system ;) No wonder there's such a backlog!
--
Robbie- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Backlog isn't that bad. Only waiting since July for an appeal for DLA
I'm helping someone do. Been told we should have a date by Easter.
Thats having a date, not actually getting it heard by then.
Lovely backdated money, and my fees aren't too high.... :)

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

Post by Robbie

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Ah, malpractice. And when exactly did the hearing for this malpractice
take place? Was it in a court? Or just in front of the medical
authorities?
An allegation needs to be proved. Or else its simply your opinion, not
a fact.
So, how long have you known this complaints process is 'bent' and what
are you doing about it?
Or is it simply that you disagree with the complaints process?
Martin <><
_______________________________________________
I am doing plenty about it, I have been going through their complaints
process for the last 1 yr 9 mts and counting. I currently have 2 appeals
pending with a third one on the way. I have even defeated them at
tribunal and they are still trying to say I am not entitled to ESA. No
system can be that protracted and convoluted unless it is bent. The DWP
is reaching a point where I could have a legitimate claim for harassment.
But then our bent legal system will refuse legal aid for this because
they do not want the public to know what an absolute shower of cunts they
are.

3 appeals on the go? Niteawk, you're doing your best to bring down the
appeals system ;) No wonder there's such a backlog!

Yes, well 2 appeals on the go at the same time, currently awaiting tribunal
dates. There will be a 3rd appeal for refusing to pay cold weather payments
which I am entitled to, I have asked them to put their reasons in writing
for not paying. As you know they are supposed to pay CWP automatically, so I
am not confident that they will write. Its not a benefit that you can apply
for in the conventional sense, basically you have to trust them to pay it.

Anyway I will submit a GL24 even if they do not put their excuses in
writing. They will have to write to me for not allowing an appeal, then I
can submit an appeal on the basis of disagreeing with the decision. I will
get there in the end. ;)

[Robbie]

Post by Niteawk

Post by Robbie

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Ah, malpractice. And when exactly did the hearing for this malpractice
take place? Was it in a court? Or just in front of the medical
authorities?
An allegation needs to be proved. Or else its simply your opinion, not
a fact.
So, how long have you known this complaints process is 'bent' and what
are you doing about it?
Or is it simply that you disagree with the complaints process?
Martin <><
_______________________________________________
I am doing plenty about it, I have been going through their
complaints process for the last 1 yr 9 mts and counting. I currently
have 2 appeals pending with a third one on the way. I have even
defeated them at tribunal and they are still trying to say I am not
entitled to ESA. No system can be that protracted and convoluted
unless it is bent. The DWP is reaching a point where I could have a
legitimate claim for harassment. But then our bent legal system will
refuse legal aid for this because they do not want the public to know
what an absolute shower of cunts they are.

3 appeals on the go? Niteawk, you're doing your best to bring down the
appeals system ;) No wonder there's such a backlog!

Yes, well 2 appeals on the go at the same time, currently awaiting
tribunal dates. There will be a 3rd appeal for refusing to pay cold
weather payments which I am entitled to, I have asked them to put their
reasons in writing for not paying. As you know they are supposed to pay
CWP automatically, so I am not confident that they will write. Its not a
benefit that you can apply for in the conventional sense, basically you
have to trust them to pay it.
Anyway I will submit a GL24 even if they do not put their excuses in
writing. They will have to write to me for not allowing an appeal, then
I can submit an appeal on the basis of disagreeing with the decision. I
will get there in the end. ;)

You haven't received a Cold Weather Payment? Are you on assessment rate
(or appeal) ESA? If so, you won't qualify - you need to be receiving the
work related or support component addition. If you aren't getting either
of those components and subsequently you do following your appeal you
will receive your CWP... though by then we'll probably be in the middle
of a hot summer!

[Niteawk]

Post by Robbie
You haven't received a Cold Weather Payment? Are you on assessment rate
(or appeal) ESA? If so, you won't qualify - you need to be receiving the
work related or support component addition. If you aren't getting either
of those components and subsequently you do following your appeal you will
receive your CWP... though by then we'll probably be in the middle of a
hot summer!
--
Robbie

I realise I am not entitled to CWP while I am in the assessment phase, I am
thinking ahead to when I get the component rate backdated, I expect them to
pay the CWP as well. Naturally they will refuse to pay saying I was in the
assessment phase. Basically they are conning people out of money by moving
the goal posts.

Thats why I am asking them to send me a letter now giving reasons for not
paying CWP, and why I am going to appeal. I know they won't include CWP with
the backdated component rate of ESA so I am claiming the right to appeal for
it in advance IYSWIM. This is one of those instances where I might get past
the tribunal stage for a change.

[Robbie]

Post by Niteawk

Post by Robbie
You haven't received a Cold Weather Payment? Are you on assessment
rate (or appeal) ESA? If so, you won't qualify - you need to be
receiving the work related or support component addition. If you
aren't getting either of those components and subsequently you do
following your appeal you will receive your CWP... though by then
we'll probably be in the middle of a hot summer!
--
Robbie

I realise I am not entitled to CWP while I am in the assessment phase, I
am thinking ahead to when I get the component rate backdated, I expect
them to pay the CWP as well. Naturally they will refuse to pay saying I
was in the assessment phase. Basically they are conning people out of
money by moving the goal posts.
Thats why I am asking them to send me a letter now giving reasons for
not paying CWP, and why I am going to appeal. I know they won't include
CWP with the backdated component rate of ESA so I am claiming the right
to appeal for it in advance IYSWIM. This is one of those instances where
I might get past the tribunal stage for a change.

You claim benefits almost as if you were playing a game of chess -
thinking two or three moves ahead...

[Niteawk]

Post by Robbie
You claim benefits almost as if you were playing a game of chess -
thinking two or three moves ahead...
--
Robbie

Funny you should say that, I was invited to the London Chess Classic 2010 at
Olympia. A common misconception in chess, thinking 2 or 3 moves ahead is a
bit like back seat driving, being able to assess the situation correctly is
the real skill, then your moves will be in harmony with the position. ;)

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by Niteawk

Post by Robbie
You claim benefits almost as if you were playing a game of chess -
thinking two or three moves ahead...
--
Robbie

Funny you should say that, I was invited to the London Chess Classic 2010 at
Olympia. A common misconception in chess, thinking 2 or 3 moves ahead is a
bit like back seat driving, being able to assess the situation correctly is
the real skill, then your moves will be in harmony with the position. ;)

Even 3 moves ahead is a massive number of potential moves, any one of
which your opponent can use, or even one you haven't thought of.
We had to study a bit about chess at university as part of one of our
modules, though very few of us play the game any more.
Assessing the board is one skill that was mentioned. Psyching out your
opponent was another.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:d787c671-6c65-4098-84a3-***@fm22g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

Even 3 moves ahead is a massive number of potential moves, any one of
which your opponent can use, or even one you haven't thought of.
We had to study a bit about chess at university as part of one of our
modules, though very few of us play the game any more.
Assessing the board is one skill that was mentioned. Psyching out your
opponent was another.

Martin <><

____________________________________________
You must have been to one of the poorer uni's. Psyching out your opponent
LOL. I can see that working......not. And as you say looking 3 moves ahead
involves looking at a massive number of positions. Actually looking 3 moves
ahead potentially involves looking at millions of variations, can't be done
by a human. The average Fritz or Rybka chess program calculates 3 ply in
millionths of a second, and plays to master level.

Sometimes I can see up to 50 or more moves ahead, work that one out Mr uni,
but there is no way on earth I can see 3 moves ahead in all variations, and
with each move to repeat the process, its impossible. Thats why you must
know how to assess the position. Lets not forget the clocks either, you
would lose every game on time if you attempted to think 3 moves ahead in all
variations.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Even 3 moves ahead is a massive number of potential moves, any one of
which your opponent can use, or even one you haven't thought of.
We had to study a bit about chess at university as part of one of our
modules, though very few of us play the game any more.
Assessing the board is one skill that was mentioned. Psyching out your
opponent was another.
Martin  <><
____________________________________________
You must have been to one of the poorer uni's. Psyching out your opponent
LOL. I can see that working......not. And as you say looking 3 moves ahead
involves looking at a massive number of positions. Actually looking 3 moves
ahead potentially involves looking at millions of variations, can't be done
by a human. The average Fritz or Rybka chess program calculates 3 ply in
millionths of a second, and plays to master level.
Sometimes I can see up to 50 or more moves ahead, work that one out Mr uni,
but there is no way on earth I can see 3 moves ahead in all variations, and
with each move to repeat the process, its impossible. Thats why you must
know how to assess the position. Lets not forget the clocks either, you
would lose every game on time if you attempted to think 3 moves ahead in all
variations.

You've never put another player on the defensive? Darn, you need to
play chess more.
As for looking moves ahead - not that hard. Becomes harder the further
you try it, 3 is achieveable.
I've not tried seeing 50 or more moves ahead in chess. Suprised you
can do that but not see 3.

Not heard my uni was poor, I do know the module is relatively new
(started last year) and closest vaguely similar module is taught at
Kings College London. But not the same module.

Never played using clocks. Impossible in a delay mail game, we use
calenders for that (2 years is maximum time to move, rarely invoked).
Games against friends, no need for clocks. Playing for enjoyment, not
competition.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:10c473bd-336b-457e-b63f-***@u3g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...
You've never put another player on the defensive? Darn, you need to
play chess more.
As for looking moves ahead - not that hard. Becomes harder the further
you try it, 3 is achieveable.
I've not tried seeing 50 or more moves ahead in chess. Suprised you
can do that but not see 3.

Martin <><

____________________________________________
You are what is known in chess parlance as a patzer, do not attempt to cross
swords with an expert, and its 3 ply not 3.;)

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
You've never put another player on the defensive? Darn, you need to
play chess more.
As for looking moves ahead - not that hard. Becomes harder the further
you try it, 3 is achieveable.
I've not tried seeing 50 or more moves ahead in chess. Suprised you
can do that but not see 3.
Martin  <><
____________________________________________
You are what is known in chess parlance as a patzer, do not attempt to cross
swords with an expert, and its 3 ply not 3.;)

I'm what is known as a guy who plays for fun, nothing more.
I've won more than I've lost over the past 3 decades. But win or lose,
I enjoy the games.
Call it ply or not, doesn't change the number. In another hobby, 3 ply
means something very different. :)

Martin <><

[nigel]

x-no-archive: yes

Post by Niteawk
You must have been to one of the poorer uni's. Psyching out your
opponent LOL. I can see that working......not.

Psyching out your opponent is probably less important in chess than
games of chance like poker, but there's still a role for it. The top
players know each other's games pretty well, so the process of psyching
out could be as simple as taking an opponent into an opening variation
which they have rarely encountered, or which resulted in a loss last
time out.

And yoghourt colours, of course!

Post by Niteawk
And as you say looking 3
moves ahead involves looking at a massive number of positions. Actually
looking 3 moves ahead potentially involves looking at millions of
variations, can't be done by a human.

A human can filter most of them out. A top player should be able to
manage to look three moves ahead. On the other hand, a computer
programme which looked only three moves ahead without decent positional
evaluation algorithms would probably lose most of the time to any
competent player.

Post by Niteawk
The average Fritz or Rybka chess
program calculates 3 ply in millionths of a second, and plays to master
level.
Sometimes I can see up to 50 or more moves ahead, work that one out Mr uni,

Aren't there some forced endgame situations which can take 50 moves or more?

Post by Niteawk
but there is no way on earth I can see 3 moves ahead in all
variations, and with each move to repeat the process, its impossible.
Thats why you must know how to assess the position. Lets not forget the
clocks either, you would lose every game on time if you attempted to
think 3 moves ahead in all variations.

FWIW I'm no great shakes at chess but I've written some board game
programmes and I'm familiar with the concepts behind them.

Evil Nigel

[Niteawk]

Post by nigel
x-no-archive: yes

Post by Niteawk
You must have been to one of the poorer uni's. Psyching out your opponent
LOL. I can see that working......not.

Psyching out your opponent is probably less important in chess than games
of chance like poker, but there's still a role for it. The top players
know each other's games pretty well, so the process of psyching out could
be as simple as taking an opponent into an opening variation which they
have rarely encountered, or which resulted in a loss last time out.

Trying to take a top player out of book is not psyching them out, and it can
backfire on you. Nor is it good practice to play openings that an opponent
has not done well with as they will have learnt a lot from their previous
losses. The real kicker is to play an opening your opponent does well with
and is happy to play, that makes them predictable, its up to you to discover
a novelty that can beat them.


Thats the end, I am not posting off topic again.

[nigel]

x-no-archive: yes

Post by Niteawk
Trying to take a top player out of book is not psyching them out, and it
can backfire on you. Nor is it good practice to play openings that an
opponent has not done well with as they will have learnt a lot from
their previous losses. The real kicker is to play an opening your
opponent does well with and is happy to play, that makes them
predictable, its up to you to discover a novelty that can beat them.

Playing a variation you have studied more than your opponent gives you
an advantage. Playing a variation your opponent has studied more than
you gives your opponent an advantage. I don't understand why you'd think
differently, unless chess is a very strange game.

I'd be interested to know the sort of psyching strategies Martin studied
at Uni.

Post by Niteawk
Thats the end, I am not posting off topic again.

I'm reading and posting from uk.people.support.depression where most
topics are open for discussion.

I can see how thinking ahead would help against government bean
counters, but presumably psyching out the jobsworths would be counter
productive (though immensely enjoyable).

Evil Nigel

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by nigel
x-no-archive: yes

Post by Niteawk
Trying to take a top player out of book is not psyching them out, and it
can backfire on you. Nor is it good practice to play openings that an
opponent has not done well with as they will have learnt a lot from
their previous losses. The real kicker is to play an opening your
opponent does well with and is happy to play, that makes them
predictable, its up to you to discover a novelty that can beat them.

Playing a variation you have studied more than your opponent gives you
an advantage. Playing a variation your opponent has studied more than
you gives your opponent an advantage. I don't understand why you'd think
differently, unless chess is a very strange game.
I'd be interested to know the sort of psyching strategies Martin studied
at Uni.

Post by Niteawk
Thats the end, I am not posting off topic again.

I'm reading and posting from uk.people.support.depression where most
topics are open for discussion.
I can see how thinking ahead would help against government bean
counters, but presumably psyching out the jobsworths would be counter
productive (though immensely enjoyable).
Evil Nigel

You'd be suprised what we study at university these days. Some stuff
is interesting, some not.

Games wise (or indeed in a confrontation), forcing your opponent to
react to you, forcing him/her off their own strategy or plan, while
setting up to reach the goal you have set - psyching your opponent is
handy.
Useful in games, taught in Sandhurst and West Point among other
places.
Even better if you can force them to make a mistake, though its not
worth requiring that to happen for your own strategy to work.

Martin <><

[nigel]

x-no-archive: yes

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by nigel
x-no-archive: yes

Post by Niteawk
Trying to take a top player out of book is not psyching them out, and it
can backfire on you. Nor is it good practice to play openings that an
opponent has not done well with as they will have learnt a lot from
their previous losses. The real kicker is to play an opening your
opponent does well with and is happy to play, that makes them
predictable, its up to you to discover a novelty that can beat them.

Playing a variation you have studied more than your opponent gives you
an advantage. Playing a variation your opponent has studied more than
you gives your opponent an advantage. I don't understand why you'd think
differently, unless chess is a very strange game.
I'd be interested to know the sort of psyching strategies Martin studied
at Uni.

Post by Niteawk
Thats the end, I am not posting off topic again.

I'm reading and posting from uk.people.support.depression where most
topics are open for discussion.
I can see how thinking ahead would help against government bean
counters, but presumably psyching out the jobsworths would be counter
productive (though immensely enjoyable).
Evil Nigel

You'd be suprised what we study at university these days. Some stuff
is interesting, some not.
Games wise (or indeed in a confrontation), forcing your opponent to
react to you, forcing him/her off their own strategy or plan, while
setting up to reach the goal you have set - psyching your opponent is
handy.
Useful in games, taught in Sandhurst and West Point among other
places.
Even better if you can force them to make a mistake, though its not
worth requiring that to happen for your own strategy to work.
Martin <><

Thank you.

More useful than a degree in Coronation Street or Madonna :)

Evil Nigel

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by nigel
x-no-archive: yes

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by nigel
x-no-archive: yes

Post by Niteawk
Trying to take a top player out of book is not psyching them out, and it
can backfire on you. Nor is it good practice to play openings that an
opponent has not done well with as they will have learnt a lot from
their previous losses. The real kicker is to play an opening your
opponent does well with and is happy to play, that makes them
predictable, its up to you to discover a novelty that can beat them.

Playing a variation you have studied more than your opponent gives you
an advantage. Playing a variation your opponent has studied more than
you gives your opponent an advantage. I don't understand why you'd think
differently, unless chess is a very strange game.
I'd be interested to know the sort of psyching strategies Martin studied
at Uni.

Post by Niteawk
Thats the end, I am not posting off topic again.

I'm reading and posting from uk.people.support.depression where most
topics are open for discussion.
I can see how thinking ahead would help against government bean
counters, but presumably psyching out the jobsworths would be counter
productive (though immensely enjoyable).
Evil Nigel

You'd be suprised what we study at university these days. Some stuff
is interesting, some not.
Games wise (or indeed in a confrontation), forcing your opponent to
react to you, forcing him/her off their own strategy or plan, while
setting up to reach the goal you have set - psyching your opponent is
handy.
Useful in games, taught in Sandhurst and West Point among other
places.
Even better if you can force them to make a mistake, though its not
worth requiring that to happen for your own strategy to work.
Martin  <><

Thank you.
More useful than a degree in Coronation Street or Madonna :)
Evil Nigel- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

All degrees are useful. For the individual doing the degree. Whether
its useful to society is more open to question, and is often down to
the individual.
A few of the people on my course plan to join the army, one wants to
work in a museum, two want to be accountants and one wants to be a
defence analyst.
A few of us older students have careers or professions already.

Be interesting to see what happens to some courses over the next few
years, some are more popular or have greater commercial possibilities
than others. Some are more relevant in society these days than others.

Martin <><

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by Niteawk

Post by nigel
x-no-archive: yes

Post by Niteawk
You must have been to one of the poorer uni's. Psyching out your opponent
LOL. I can see that working......not.

Psyching out your opponent is probably less important in chess than games
of chance like poker, but there's still a role for it. The top players
know each other's games pretty well, so the process of psyching out could
be as simple as taking an opponent into an opening variation which they
have rarely encountered, or which resulted in a loss last time out.

Trying to take a top player out of book is not psyching them out, and it can
backfire on you. Nor is it good practice to play openings that an opponent
has not done well with as they will have learnt a lot from their previous
losses. The real kicker is to play an opening your opponent does well with
and is happy to play, that makes them predictable, its up to you to discover
a novelty that can beat them.
Thats the end, I am not posting off topic again.

Lets look at the dictionary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/psych
psych1    /saɪk/ Show Spelled
[sahyk] Show IPA

–verb (used with object) Informal .
1. to intimidate or frighten psychologically, or make nervous (often
fol. by out ): to psych out the competition.
2. to prepare psychologically to be in the right frame of mind or to
give one's best (often fol. by up ): to psych oneself up for an
interview.
3. to figure out psychologically; decipher (often fol. by out ): to
psych out a problem.


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/psyching
psychedpsych·ing
Definition of PSYCH
transitive verb
1: psychoanalyze
2a : to anticipate correctly the intentions or actions of : outguess
b : to analyze or figure out (as a problem or course of action) <I
psyched it all out by myself and decided — David Hulburd>
3a : to make psychologically uneasy : intimidate, scare <pressure
doesn't psych me — Jerry Quarry> —often used with out <has a way of
psyching out the competition> b : to make (as oneself) psychologically
ready especially for performance —often used with up <psyched herself
up for the race>



Martin <><

[Niteawk]

Post by Niteawk

Post by nigel
x-no-archive: yes

Post by Niteawk
You must have been to one of the poorer uni's. Psyching out your opponent
LOL. I can see that working......not.

Psyching out your opponent is probably less important in chess than games
of chance like poker, but there's still a role for it. The top players
know each other's games pretty well, so the process of psyching out could
be as simple as taking an opponent into an opening variation which they
have rarely encountered, or which resulted in a loss last time out.

Trying to take a top player out of book is not psyching them out, and it can
backfire on you. Nor is it good practice to play openings that an opponent
has not done well with as they will have learnt a lot from their previous
losses. The real kicker is to play an opening your opponent does well with
and is happy to play, that makes them predictable, its up to you to discover
a novelty that can beat them.
Thats the end, I am not posting off topic again.

Lets look at the dictionary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/psych
psych1    /saɪk/ Show Spelled
[sahyk] Show IPA

–verb (used with object) Informal .
1. to intimidate or frighten psychologically, or make nervous (often
fol. by out ): to psych out the competition.
2. to prepare psychologically to be in the right frame of mind or to
give one's best (often fol. by up ): to psych oneself up for an
interview.
3. to figure out psychologically; decipher (often fol. by out ): to
psych out a problem.


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/psyching
psychedpsych·ing
Definition of PSYCH
transitive verb
1: psychoanalyze
2a : to anticipate correctly the intentions or actions of : outguess
b : to analyze or figure out (as a problem or course of action) <I
psyched it all out by myself and decided — David Hulburd>
3a : to make psychologically uneasy : intimidate, scare <pressure
doesn't psych me — Jerry Quarry> —often used with out <has a way of
psyching out the competition> b : to make (as oneself) psychologically
ready especially for performance —often used with up <psyched herself
up for the race>



Martin <><
_______________________________________________________________
Chess is to complicated for most people to play perfectly. You really are
entering the realms of fantasy if you think you are psyching out opponents
when you can barely understand chess strategy. The reality is much more
mundane, players simply make mistakes, all you have to do is wait.

Is that psychology, or rabid wood pusher syndrome. ;)

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by Niteawk

Post by nigel
x-no-archive: yes

Post by Niteawk
You must have been to one of the poorer uni's. Psyching out your opponent
LOL. I can see that working......not.

Psyching out your opponent is probably less important in chess than games
of chance like poker, but there's still a role for it. The top players
know each other's games pretty well, so the process of psyching out could
be as simple as taking an opponent into an opening variation which they
have rarely encountered, or which resulted in a loss last time out.

Trying to take a top player out of book is not psyching them out, and it can
backfire on you. Nor is it good practice to play openings that an opponent
has not done well with as they will have learnt a lot from their previous
losses. The real kicker is to play an opening your opponent does well with
and is happy to play, that makes them predictable, its up to you to discover
a novelty that can beat them.
Thats the end, I am not posting off topic again.

Lets look at the dictionary.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/psych
psych1    /saɪk/  Show Spelled
[sahyk]  Show IPA
–verb (used with object) Informal .
1. to intimidate or frighten psychologically, or make nervous (often
fol. by out ): to psych out the competition.
2. to prepare psychologically to be in the right frame of mind or to
give one's best (often fol. by up ): to psych oneself up for an
interview.
3. to figure out psychologically; decipher (often fol. by out ): to
psych out a problem.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/psyching
psychedpsych·ing
Definition of PSYCH
transitive verb
1: psychoanalyze
2a : to anticipate correctly the intentions or actions of : outguess
b : to analyze or figure out (as a problem or course of action) <I
psyched it all out by myself and decided — David Hulburd>
3a : to make psychologically uneasy : intimidate, scare <pressure
doesn't psych me — Jerry Quarry> —often used with out <has a way of
psyching out the competition> b : to make (as oneself) psychologically
ready especially for performance —often used with up <psyched herself
up for the race>
Martin  <><
_______________________________________________________________
Chess is to complicated for most people to play perfectly. You really are
entering the realms of fantasy if you think you are psyching out opponents
when you can barely understand chess strategy. The reality is much more
mundane, players simply make mistakes, all you have to do is wait.
Is that psychology, or rabid wood pusher syndrome. ;)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Who wants to play perfectly? All the players I have been up against
want to play the game according to the rules.
And have fun.

You can choose to wait for a player to make a mistake, others of us
prefer not to base a strategy on that. And if they can make a mistake,
so can you.
If you aren't causing your opponent to react to your moves, are you
then reacting to his? Having to play catch-up to their strategy?
Rather than implementing your own.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:becdac71-727b-4852-8f10-***@d7g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...

Who wants to play perfectly? All the players I have been up against
want to play the game according to the rules.
And have fun.

Martin <><

___________________________________________
Well you need to play to at least master level if you expect people to
believe your theory on psyching out, otherwise it is simply a contest of
blunders, not something that can be relied upon to support theory. A contest
between duffers who frequently miss chances to win, what use is that?

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Who wants to play perfectly? All the players I have been up against
want to play the game according to the rules.
And have fun.
Martin  <><
___________________________________________
Well you need to play to at least master level if you expect people to
believe your theory on psyching out, otherwise it is simply a contest of
blunders, not something that can be relied upon to support theory. A contest
between duffers who frequently miss chances to win, what use is that?

Are you suggesting I'm not master level? You simply wouldn't know.
Though as I don't play competition games, I'm not bothered by it.
I've been playing chess for over 30 years. Some great opponents, some
of whom I play other games against too.

If you aren't psyching your opponent out - is your opponent doing it
to you?


As for the theory, what theory? Try fact sometime.
Just a few sites, there is plenty more.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,910405-4,00.html

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1086468/index.htm

http://main.uschess.org/content/view/6636/380

http://gameknot.com/room-fm.pl?home=2&th=421

Oh, and quite a few places where Bobby Fischer and psyching an oppent
out are discussed. You may not have heard of him, but world famous in
his day as a chess player.
I'd consider him rude, but some people can be put off by rudeness.....

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Are you suggesting I'm not master level? You simply wouldn't know.

Absolutely, and yes I simply do know.

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Though as I don't play competition games, I'm not bothered by it.

And here is the proof, not playing in tournaments.

Post by m***@hotmail.com
I've been playing chess for over 30 years. Some great opponents, some
of whom I play other games against too.

Over 30 yrs eh! then you won't mind telling me where Nigel Short, who is
considered to be the strongest English chess player ever, went wrong when he
played Magnus Carlsen, a young lad from Norway, at last weeks London Chess
Classic.

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Oh, and quite a few places where Bobby Fischer.....

Yes, I know Bobby, the greatest player who ever lived IMO. Now cast your
alleged expert eye on this game and tell me what you think. ;)

http://live.londonchessclassic.com/live.htm

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by Niteawk

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Are you suggesting I'm not master level? You simply wouldn't know.

Absolutely, and yes I simply do know.

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Though as I don't play competition games, I'm not bothered by it.

And here is the proof, not playing in tournaments.

Post by m***@hotmail.com
I've been playing chess for over 30 years. Some great opponents, some
of whom I play other games against too.

Over 30 yrs eh! then you won't mind telling me where Nigel Short, who is
considered to be the strongest English chess player ever, went wrong when he
played Magnus Carlsen, a young lad from Norway, at last weeks London Chess
Classic.

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Oh, and quite a few places where Bobby Fischer.....

Yes, I know Bobby, the greatest player who ever lived IMO. Now cast your
alleged expert eye on this game and tell me what you think. ;)
http://live.londonchessclassic.com/live.htm

Yes, tournaments aren't everything. I don't play other games in
tournaments either.

Sorry, didn't see the London Chess Classic. No reason to go.
I would guess from your comment that he was beaten.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

Post by Niteawk
http://live.londonchessclassic.com/live.htm

Yes, tournaments aren't everything. I don't play other games in
tournaments either.

Sorry, didn't see the London Chess Classic. No reason to go.
I would guess from your comment that he was beaten.

Martin <><

__________________________________________________
You can see the game online. Its tough isn't it, to put your finger on
something you can't see, let alone understand in relation to chess. And how
would psyching out work against players of that calibre when you can't
explain what is happening on the board?

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by Niteawk
http://live.londonchessclassic.com/live.htm

Yes, tournaments aren't everything. I don't play other games in
tournaments either.
Sorry, didn't see the London Chess Classic. No reason to go.
I would guess from your comment that he was beaten.
Martin  <><
__________________________________________________
You can see the game online. Its tough isn't it, to put your finger on
something you can't see, let alone understand in relation to chess. And how
would psyching out work against players of that calibre when you can't
explain what is happening on the board?

So despite knowing I don't take part in tournaments, you want me to
watch a game online done by two players who I don't follow, in a game
I don't follow the competitions in?
What a waste of time. What conceiveable reason would I have to bother
with their game? I'm unlikely to ever play either player.
One player won, the other lost - no other information is needed.

And what has the board got to do with psyching out someone? You really
don't get this concept of 'psyching your opponent out' do you?
Do as Bobby did, show up late to a competition - start by annoying his
opponents before he even sees them. You know, Bobby, the guy you say
is the greatest player who ever lived in your opinion?

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a3af0b87-4663-4406-ad00-***@g26g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
So despite knowing I don't take part in tournaments, you want me to
watch a game online done by two players who I don't follow, in a game
I don't follow the competitions in?
What a waste of time. What conceiveable reason would I have to bother
with their game? I'm unlikely to ever play either player.
One player won, the other lost - no other information is needed.

And what has the board got to do with psyching out someone? You really
don't get this concept of 'psyching your opponent out' do you?
Do as Bobby did, show up late to a competition - start by annoying his
opponents before he even sees them. You know, Bobby, the guy you say
is the greatest player who ever lived in your opinion?

Martin <><

_________________________________________________
The point is, psyching out chess players is a myth. What you are talking
about amounts to cheating, gamesmanship for want of a better word and it has
no place in chess. Yes, Fischer used such tactics to annoy his opponents
BEFORE a match was due to start. Another favourite of his was complaining
about the venue, or postponing the match for another day, acting the fool
IOW. Behaviour like that would not be tolerated these days. If a player
carried on like that today, s/he would be disqualified on the spot.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
So despite knowing I don't take part in tournaments, you want me to
watch a game online done by two players who I don't follow, in a game
I don't follow the competitions in?
What a waste of time. What conceiveable reason would I have to bother
with their game? I'm unlikely to ever play either player.
One player won, the other lost - no other information is needed.
And what has the board got to do with psyching out someone? You really
don't get this concept of 'psyching your opponent out' do you?
Do as Bobby did, show up late to a competition - start by annoying his
opponents before he even sees them. You know, Bobby, the guy you say
is the greatest player who ever lived in your opinion?
Martin  <><
_________________________________________________
The point is, psyching out chess players is a myth. What you are talking
about amounts to cheating, gamesmanship for want of a better word and it has
no place in chess. Yes, Fischer used such tactics to annoy his opponents
BEFORE a match was due to start. Another favourite of his was complaining
about the venue, or postponing the match for another day, acting the fool
IOW. Behaviour like that would not be tolerated these days. If a player
carried on like that today, s/he would be disqualified on the spot.

And yet it was used by Bobby, there are websites it is mentioned, and
even covered very briefly as part of a university course that among
other things looks at two player competitive games.
Even you mention it - so not a myth then.

Your declaration that something is a myth doesn't prevent someone
using it on you. Or you using it on someone.
And who says that psyching an opponent out should only take place
during the game? Nothing I've heard of says it should only take place
during the game. Can be as simple as smiling. Can be as complex as
starting to win.
And can start from the moment you know the match will take place. Not
limited to chess - used in many games and sports.


Martin <><

[AlfyDoor]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
So despite knowing I don't take part in tournaments, you want me to
watch a game online done by two players who I don't follow, in a game
I don't follow the competitions in?
What a waste of time. What conceiveable reason would I have to bother
with their game? I'm unlikely to ever play either player.
One player won, the other lost - no other information is needed.
And what has the board got to do with psyching out someone? You really
don't get this concept of 'psyching your opponent out' do you?
Do as Bobby did, show up late to a competition -

Not actually possible these days. If you're not at the board when your clock
is started you're defaulted. This leads to an uncomfortable bit of sitting
opposite each other for a few minutes trying not to look at the other guy :)

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:b98b7fe7-02ec-4442-bd81-***@l24g2000vby.googlegroups.com...
And yet it was used by Bobby, there are websites it is mentioned, and
even covered very briefly as part of a university course that among
other things looks at two player competitive games.
Even you mention it - so not a myth then.

Your declaration that something is a myth doesn't prevent someone
using it on you. Or you using it on someone.
And who says that psyching an opponent out should only take place
during the game? Nothing I've heard of says it should only take place
during the game. Can be as simple as smiling. Can be as complex as
starting to win.
And can start from the moment you know the match will take place. Not
limited to chess - used in many games and sports.


Martin <><

______________________________________
Yeah like what happened in the past is like in the past, the rules have
changed since then. Your shenanigans or psyching out as you call it have no
place in the modern game, any antics of that nature on or off the board will
see you disqualified.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And yet it was used by Bobby, there are websites it is mentioned, and
even covered very briefly as part of a university course that among
other things looks at two player competitive games.
Even you mention it - so not a myth then.
Your declaration that something is a myth doesn't prevent someone
using it on you. Or you using it on someone.
And who says that psyching an opponent out should only take place
during the game? Nothing I've heard of says it should only take place
during the game. Can be as simple as smiling. Can be as complex as
starting to win.
And can start from the moment you know the match will take place. Not
limited to chess - used in many games and sports.
Martin  <><
______________________________________
Yeah like what happened in the past is like in the past, the rules have
changed since then. Your shenanigans or psyching out as you call it have no
place in the modern game, any antics of that nature on or off the board will
see you disqualified.

Yes, rules have changed in the past several hundred years, though at
least now we just have two players and a small board.

As for disqualification - I rather doubt it. If I keep smiling at you,
is that grounds for disqualification? I I get into your personal space
before a match, is that grounds for disqualification?

You really don't understand the concept do you?

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:8a0ab9d1-686c-4dca-b3e9-***@w18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...

Yes, rules have changed in the past several hundred years, though at
least now we just have two players and a small board.

As for disqualification - I rather doubt it. If I keep smiling at you,
is that grounds for disqualification? I I get into your personal space
before a match, is that grounds for disqualification?

You really don't understand the concept do you?

Martin <><

_________________________________________
Oh I understand alright, I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you
believe nonsense like that is going to help you. You can smile all you want,
my eyes only focus on the game during play, and if you got to close to me,
believe me, you would not do it a second time, and with all that crap going
on in your mind, I am left wondering where you find the the time to actually
play the game. Do you even see the board or are you so busy acting the fool,
you forget to move and end up losing on time.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Yes, rules have changed in the past several hundred years, though at
least now we just have two players and a small board.
As for disqualification - I rather doubt it. If I keep smiling at you,
is that grounds for disqualification? I I get into your personal space
before a match, is that grounds for disqualification?
You really don't understand the concept do you?
Martin  <><
_________________________________________
Oh I understand alright, I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you
believe nonsense like that is going to help you. You can smile all you want,
my eyes only focus on the game during play, and if you got to close to me,
believe me, you would not do it a second time, and with all that crap going
on in your mind, I am left wondering where you find the the time to actually
play the game. Do you even see the board or are you so busy acting the fool,
you forget to move and end up losing on time.

You just keep digging yourself in deeper about your lack of
understanding.
And seeing as I don't play competition games, why use a clock? I win
often enough for me - and I never act the fool.
Oh, just never try a delay mail game. You focusing only on the game
during play would cost you badly - moves are measured in weeks or
months, the only time limit is moves must be taken within 2 years or
forfeit the turn.


I leave acting the fool to you.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:7dbfd469-3413-4823-b7da-***@n10g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...

the only time limit is moves must be taken within 2 years or
forfeit the turn.


I leave acting the fool to you.

Martin <><

___________________________________
That says it all really, you are such a fool you do not realise what you are
saying. The average game concludes in around 30 moves, ie 30 for white and
30 for black, you should finish your game in around 120 years. I knew you
had a bit of time on your hands but that is ridiculous. Is the next of kin
allowed to take over. LOL ;)

[m***@hotmail.com]

 the only time limit is moves must be taken within 2 years or
forfeit the turn.
I leave acting the fool to you.
Martin  <><
___________________________________
That says it all really, you are such a fool you do not realise what you are
saying. The average game concludes in around 30 moves, ie 30 for white and
30 for black, you should finish your game in around 120 years. I knew you
had a bit of time on your hands but that is ridiculous. Is the next of kin
allowed to take over. LOL ;)

No, I said the time limit is 2 years.
People don't have to take that long. Every delay mail game I've played
has been over in less than 5 years.

You really are an idiot, taking a time limit of 2 years as a normal
turn length......

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message

No, I said the time limit is 2 years.
People don't have to take that long. Every delay mail game I've played
has been over in less than 5 years.

You really are an idiot, taking a time limit of 2 years as a normal
turn length......

Martin <><

_______________________________
I am arn't I, there was me thinking you said 120 yrs when its only 5 yrs per
game. Thats almost a rapidplay on planet Martin.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
No, I said the time limit is 2 years.
People don't have to take that long. Every delay mail game I've played
has been over in less than 5 years.
You really are an idiot, taking a time limit of 2 years as a normal
turn length......
Martin  <><
_______________________________
I am arn't I, there was me thinking you said 120 yrs when its only 5 yrs per
game. Thats almost a rapidplay on planet Martin.

I've played in less than 5 years. Some others have taken longer, some
shorter lengths of time.
Depends on the two players.
As for planet Martin, I've no idea what you are on about.

Martin <><

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by Niteawk

Post by Robbie
You haven't received a Cold Weather Payment? Are you on assessment rate
(or appeal) ESA? If so, you won't qualify - you need to be receiving the
work related or support component addition. If you aren't getting either
of those components and subsequently you do following your appeal you will
receive your CWP... though by then we'll probably be in the middle of a
hot summer!
--
Robbie

I realise I am not entitled to CWP while I am in the assessment phase, I am
thinking ahead to when I get the component rate backdated, I expect them to
pay the CWP as well. Naturally they will refuse to pay saying I was in the
assessment phase. Basically they are conning people out of money by moving
the goal posts.
Thats why I am asking them to send me a letter now giving reasons for not
paying CWP, and why I am going to appeal. I know they won't include CWP with
the backdated component rate of ESA so I am claiming the right to appeal for
it in advance IYSWIM. This is one of those instances where I might get past
the tribunal stage for a change.

So is the payment not automatic when you qualify, so you need to
appeal now to get them to take it into account once benefit is
awarded?

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:8dc889dc-132c-4bce-b3ef-***@j3g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
So is the payment not automatic when you qualify, so you need to
appeal now to get them to take it into account once benefit is
awarded?

Martin <><

_____________________________________
Thats it, I need to put them on notice so they have no excuses, like being
out of time or I did not contact them etc. And in several months time when I
get to tribunal, or they might reverse the decision when they receive my
doctors letter, wishful thinking, I expect them to pay ALL the arrears they
owe me. I am not going to let them conveniently forget about CWP because its
the middle of summer, or the middle of next winter at the rate they are
going.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
So is the payment not automatic when you qualify, so you need to
appeal now to get them to take it into account once benefit is
awarded?
Martin  <><
_____________________________________
Thats it, I need to put them on notice so they have no excuses, like being
out of time or I did not contact them etc. And in several months time when I
get to tribunal, or they might reverse the decision when they receive my
doctors letter, wishful thinking, I expect them to pay ALL the arrears they
owe me. I am not going to let them conveniently forget about CWP because its
the middle of summer, or the middle of next winter at the rate they are
going.

Yes, CWP is nice. Even our local homeless get it, despite not having
any cold weather expenses.
You certainly don't seem to be leaving much to chance if you can get
it dealt with (that was a compliment).

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:aee1f64f-3235-4df9-8bb0-***@m20g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

Yes, CWP is nice. Even our local homeless get it, despite not having
any cold weather expenses.
You certainly don't seem to be leaving much to chance if you can get
it dealt with (that was a compliment).

Martin <><

__________________________________
If they do not pay it in arrears, at least I will have done something about
it. Getting it dealt with remains to be seen, assuming there is an appeals
process that is, I will have a bash.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Ah, malpractice. And when exactly did the hearing for this malpractice
take place? Was it in a court? Or just in front of the medical
authorities?
An allegation needs to be proved. Or else its simply your opinion, not
a fact.
So, how long have you known this complaints process is 'bent' and what
are you doing about it?
Or is it simply that you disagree with the complaints process?
Martin  <><
_______________________________________________
I am doing plenty about it, I have been going through their complaints
process for the last 1 yr 9 mts and counting. I currently have 2 appeals
pending with a third one on the way. I have even defeated them at tribunal
and they are still trying to say I am not entitled to ESA. No system can be
that protracted and convoluted unless it is bent. The DWP is reaching a
point where I could have a legitimate claim for harassment. But then our
bent legal system will refuse legal aid for this because they do not want
the public to know what an absolute shower of cunts they are.

Hmmm...could the DWP also claim harrassment from you?
I don't think they are trying to say you are not entitled to ESA. I
think they are saying you aren't entitled to ESA, and you are
disagreeing....
I wish you luck - no idea if you'll get anywhere but from what I've
learnt about you, can't see you giving up anytime soon.

Oh, saw this today and thought of you. Its about the BBC, the Met
police and a disabled guy, but the last comment I've quoted may be of
interest. Or not.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-a-clear-case-of-attack-by-wheelchair-2160454.html

"Or maybe the incident with Jody McIntyre is nothing to do with
students, and this is the new test for anyone on disability benefit.
The police sling you on the floor, poke you about a bit, and if you
manage to roll anywhere, there is clearly nothing wrong with you and
you get your payments cut."

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4a7044ea-6f13-41e9-9e9b-***@29g2000yqq.googlegroups.com...

but from what I've
learnt about you, can't see you giving up anytime soon.

Martin <><

____________________________________
Clearly you don't like it when people stand up for their rights, still it
shows how bad things are getting when people in wheelchairs are out on the
streets fighting oppression.

[m***@hotmail.com]

 but from what I've
learnt about you, can't see you giving up anytime soon.
Martin  <><
____________________________________
Clearly you don't like it when people stand up for their rights, still it
shows how bad things are getting when people in wheelchairs are out on the
streets fighting oppression.

On the contrary my dear fellow. Some of us fight in different ways,
some of us are banned from fighting in some ways.
Not sure he was fighting oppression, but thats the way things seem to
be going. Especially when politicians and the police consider using
water cannon - lethal to a few, merely dangerous to many.
Not to mention the idiots ordering horse charges against
civilians.......

Learn to accept compliments - they won't be common.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1f0a244b-9962-469b-93d8-***@f2g2000vby.googlegroups.com...
On the contrary my dear fellow. Some of us fight in different ways,
some of us are banned from fighting in some ways.
Not sure he was fighting oppression, but thats the way things seem to
be going. Especially when politicians and the police consider using
water cannon - lethal to a few, merely dangerous to many.
Not to mention the idiots ordering horse charges against
civilians.......

Learn to accept compliments - they won't be common.

Martin <><

Yes he was fighting oppression, they are taking away the right to education
which is not free. Its one of the few services we expect the goverment to
provide with our taxes. Students must make a stand against the government
because it is not only going to affect them, it will afftect their children
and their childrens children. And why should England be the only part of the
UK to pay extortionate tuition fees. It stinks and the more protesting that
is done about this the better IMO. I would start burning universities where
only the rich can afford to go, that should improve the standards of
education in the rest of them. If the poor can't have an education, why
should the rich. ;)

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
On the contrary my dear fellow. Some of us fight in different ways,
some of us are banned from fighting in some ways.
Not sure he was fighting oppression, but thats the way things seem to
be going. Especially when politicians and the police consider using
water cannon - lethal to a few, merely dangerous to many.
Not to mention the idiots ordering horse charges against
civilians.......
Learn to accept compliments - they won't be common.
Martin  <><
Yes he was fighting oppression, they are taking away the right to education
which is not free. Its one of the few services we expect the goverment to
provide with our taxes. Students must make a stand against the government
because it is not only going to affect them, it will afftect their children
and their childrens children. And why should England be the only part of the
UK to pay extortionate tuition fees. It stinks and the more protesting that
is done about this the better IMO. I would start burning universities where
only the rich can afford to go, that should improve the standards of
education in the rest of them. If the poor can't have an education, why
should the rich. ;)

Yes, plenty of us students are making a stand. Not always in London -
not always directly, but making a stand.
Not sure he was fighting oppression then. He is now - but not sure the
increase in fees - a graduate tax by another name, and increasing
government borrowing - is itself oppression.
An increase in the tax rate isn't seen as oppression, though a 9%
increase doesn't happen often.

And making it so neither rich nor poor can have an education merely
leaves everyone equally ignorant - unless they can afford to leave and
get education elsewhere.


Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:e0fb51a5-e2e4-4b6d-9e75-***@29g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
Not sure he was fighting oppression then. He is now - but not sure the
increase in fees - a graduate tax by another name, and increasing
government borrowing - is itself oppression.
An increase in the tax rate isn't seen as oppression, though a 9%
increase doesn't happen often.

And making it so neither rich nor poor can have an education merely
leaves everyone equally ignorant - unless they can afford to leave and
get education elsewhere.


Martin <><

_____________________________________
In a civilised society education is a right especially when its paid for out
of our taxes. To remove it from the poor is elitism bordering on a form of
ethnic cleansing. Making it so neither rich or poor can have an education is
only levelling the playing field. Its certainly a fairer system than the one
the government is proposing. Millionaire ministers attacking the poor as
usual, its about time they were attacked.......... literally. ;)

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Not sure he was fighting oppression then. He is now - but not sure the
increase in fees - a graduate tax by another name, and increasing
government borrowing - is itself oppression.
An increase in the tax rate isn't seen as oppression, though a 9%
increase doesn't happen often.
And making it so neither rich nor poor can have an education merely
leaves everyone equally ignorant - unless they can afford to leave and
get education elsewhere.
Martin  <><
_____________________________________
In a civilised society education is a right especially when its paid for out
of our taxes. To remove it from the poor is elitism bordering on a form of
ethnic cleansing. Making it so neither rich or poor can have an education is
only levelling the playing field. Its certainly a fairer system than the one
the government is proposing. Millionaire ministers attacking the poor as
usual, its about time they were attacked.......... literally. ;)

And yet with other universities available outside Britain, can't stop
the rich from getting an education. All you'd do is prevent any poor
person from having a chance unless helped by funds from elsewhere.
Even the poor can currently get one for free if they qualify. Up to 6
years funding at the moment for an open university degree for those on
low enough income and meeting criteria - giving a degree for free.
Whether that will continue is more open to question.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a4a1a766-1dbc-4d08-8b72-***@w29g2000vba.googlegroups.com...

And yet with other universities available outside Britain, can't stop
the rich from getting an education.

Martin <><

_________________________________________
Wishful thinking thats all, no need to take me literally. Bring on the
revolution,

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And yet with other universities available outside Britain, can't stop
the rich from getting an education.
Martin  <><
_________________________________________
Wishful thinking thats all, no need to take me literally. Bring on the
revolution,

Merely reading what you have typed.
As for the revolution, been a while since we had one.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And yet with other universities available outside Britain, can't stop
the rich from getting an education.
Martin <><
_________________________________________
Wishful thinking thats all, no need to take me literally. Bring on the
revolution,

Merely reading what you have typed.
As for the revolution, been a while since we had one.

Martin <><

______________________________________
Now is the time to strike, they are cutting back on police and gone
completely off their rockers calling for knife weilding thugs to be let off
with a caution. No more long jail sentences for serious crimes, enter the
country illegally and serve 4 months for murdering a child in a hit and run,
then they will allow you to stay in the UK when you should have been
deported 8 years ago. Basically they are only interested in cracking down on
the poor and unemployed.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And yet with other universities available outside Britain, can't stop
the rich from getting an education.
Martin <><
_________________________________________
Wishful thinking thats all, no need to take me literally. Bring on the
revolution,

Merely reading what you have typed.
As for the revolution, been a while since we had one.
Martin  <><
______________________________________
Now is the time to strike, they are cutting back on police and gone
completely off their rockers calling for knife weilding thugs to be let off
with a caution. No more long jail sentences for serious crimes, enter the
country illegally and serve 4 months for murdering a child in a hit and run,
then they will allow you to stay in the UK when you should have been
deported 8 years ago. Basically they are only interested in cracking down on
the poor and unemployed.

Ah yes, an unemployed bloke calling for a strike.
You may be paid while striking, workers and self employed generally
not.

Take rather a lot more I suspect before we have a general strike.

Martin <><

[Niteawk]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And yet with other universities available outside Britain, can't stop
the rich from getting an education.
Martin <><
_________________________________________
Wishful thinking thats all, no need to take me literally. Bring on the
revolution,

Merely reading what you have typed.
As for the revolution, been a while since we had one.
Martin <><
______________________________________
Now is the time to strike, they are cutting back on police and gone
completely off their rockers calling for knife weilding thugs to be let off
with a caution. No more long jail sentences for serious crimes, enter the
country illegally and serve 4 months for murdering a child in a hit and run,
then they will allow you to stay in the UK when you should have been
deported 8 years ago. Basically they are only interested in cracking down on
the poor and unemployed.

Ah yes, an unemployed bloke calling for a strike.
You may be paid while striking, workers and self employed generally
not.

Take rather a lot more I suspect before we have a general strike.

Martin <><

_______________________________________________________
Martin, take one of your pills quick.The old grey matter is on the blink
again.

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@hotmail.com
And yet with other universities available outside Britain, can't stop
the rich from getting an education.
Martin <><
_________________________________________
Wishful thinking thats all, no need to take me literally. Bring on the
revolution,

Merely reading what you have typed.
As for the revolution, been a while since we had one.
Martin <><
______________________________________
Now is the time to strike, they are cutting back on police and gone
completely off their rockers calling for knife weilding thugs to be let off
with a caution. No more long jail sentences for serious crimes, enter the
country illegally and serve 4 months for murdering a child in a hit and run,
then they will allow you to stay in the UK when you should have been
deported 8 years ago. Basically they are only interested in cracking down on
the poor and unemployed.

Ah yes, an unemployed bloke calling for a strike.
You may be paid while striking, workers and self employed generally
not.
Take rather a lot more I suspect before we have a general strike.
Martin  <><
_______________________________________________________
Martin, take one of your pills quick.The old grey matter is on the blink
again.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Another of your fantasies?

Martin <><

[nigel]

x-no-archive: yes

Post by m***@hotmail.com
On the contrary my dear fellow. Some of us fight in different ways,
some of us are banned from fighting in some ways.
Not sure he was fighting oppression, but thats the way things seem to
be going. Especially when politicians and the police consider using
water cannon - lethal to a few, merely dangerous to many.
Not to mention the idiots ordering horse charges against
civilians.......
Learn to accept compliments - they won't be common.
Martin <><
Yes he was fighting oppression, they are taking away the right to
education which is not free. Its one of the few services we expect the
goverment to provide with our taxes. Students must make a stand against
the government because it is not only going to affect them, it will
afftect their children and their childrens children. And why should
England be the only part of the UK to pay extortionate tuition fees. It
stinks and the more protesting that is done about this the better IMO. I
would start burning universities where only the rich can afford to go,
that should improve the standards of education in the rest of them. If
the poor can't have an education, why should the rich. ;)

I wonder if, when Tory BLiar allegedly said "Education, education,
education", listeners failed to hear the whispered words of
accompaniment so were unable to report that what he really said was
"Education tax, education tax, education tax."

Evil Nigel

[mike]

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by Niteawk

Post by Cesc Fabregas
My GP gave me a two week sick note for depression. Then I applied for
ESA. Do I have to keep on asking a new sick note once the old one
expires or do I have to wait for the DWP to ask me for a new one?

2 weeks FFS, that is no good for someone who is claiming ESA, you need a
cert to cover you for the period pending treatment your GP should have
referred you for. It can take months just to get an appointment to see a
specialist, and you don't know how much time they are going to spend
treating you.
GP's must write a cert out for at least 3 months, otherwise your claim will
keep starting and stopping. Then there is the amount of time it takes the
BDC to process each new cert. Plus you will have to keep making appointments
to see your GP every 5 minutes, this is not acceptable or appropiate in your
circumstances, I am sure your GP will see sense once you explain you can't
live without money with all this is going on.
Lets not forget also, everything shuts down over xmas. Demand a cert for at
least 3 months for this reason alone.

Demanding things of a medical professional?
Wow, how to avoid getting what you want.
Not all doctors are so incompetent that they want to avoid seeing how
someone is coping over time until more specialised help is provided.
How are tablets working? Any problems? Does dosage need increasing or
decreasing? Or try different tablets.
How about condition thats diagnosed? Better? Worse?
Suprisingly the NHS seems to take the view that with the correct
medication, people are better able to manage to live a 'normal' life.
That can include working - some take very little time off work sick.
Martin<><

In niteawks world everyone should be on benefits until proven fit and
forced into work, no wait .... you can't force someone to work!

Mike

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by mike

Post by m***@hotmail.com

Post by Niteawk

Post by Cesc Fabregas
My GP gave me a two week sick note for depression. Then I applied for
ESA. Do I have to keep on asking a new sick note once the old one
expires or do I have to wait for the DWP to ask me for a new one?

2 weeks FFS, that is no good for someone who is claiming ESA, you need a
cert to cover you for the period pending treatment your GP should have
referred you for. It can take months just to get an appointment to see a
specialist, and you don't know how much time they are going to spend
treating you.
GP's must write a cert out for at least 3 months, otherwise your claim will
keep starting and stopping. Then there is the amount of time it takes the
BDC to process each new cert. Plus you will have to keep making appointments
to see your GP every 5 minutes, this is not acceptable or appropiate in your
circumstances, I am sure your GP will see sense once you explain you can't
live without money with all this is going on.
Lets not forget also, everything shuts down over xmas. Demand a cert for at
least 3 months for this reason alone.

Demanding things of a medical professional?
Wow, how to avoid getting what you want.
Not all doctors are so incompetent that they want to avoid seeing how
someone is coping over time until more specialised help is provided.
How are tablets working? Any problems? Does dosage need increasing or
decreasing? Or try different tablets.
How about condition thats diagnosed? Better? Worse?
Suprisingly the NHS seems to take the view that with the correct
medication, people are better able to manage to live a 'normal' life.
That can include working - some take very little time off work sick.
Martin<><

In niteawks world everyone should be on benefits until proven fit and
forced into work, no wait .... you can't force someone to work!
Mike- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Well thats me out then. I can't be proven fit.
Still get away with working though.

Martin <><

[mogga]

Post by Niteawk

Post by Cesc Fabregas
My GP gave me a two week sick note for depression. Then I applied for
ESA. Do I have to keep on asking a new sick note once the old one
expires or do I have to wait for the DWP to ask me for a new one?

2 weeks FFS, that is no good for someone who is claiming ESA, you need a
cert to cover you for the period pending treatment your GP should have

They issue a two weeker because they want to see you again in two
weeks.

If the GP wants to see them again in two weeks then the patient should
go and see them again. It is probably difficult if you are wanting to
claim additional benefits which need a long term view but that's just
part of the cr&p that goes with being sick.

Post by Niteawk
referred you for. It can take months just to get an appointment to see a
specialist, and you don't know how much time they are going to spend
treating you.
GP's must write a cert out for at least 3 months, otherwise your claim will
keep starting and stopping. Then there is the amount of time it takes the
BDC to process each new cert. Plus you will have to keep making appointments
to see your GP every 5 minutes, this is not acceptable or appropiate in your
circumstances, I am sure your GP will see sense once you explain you can't
live without money with all this is going on.
Lets not forget also, everything shuts down over xmas. Demand a cert for at
least 3 months for this reason alone.

[humble.life]

Post by mogga

Post by Niteawk

Post by Cesc Fabregas
My GP gave me a two week sick note for depression. Then I applied for
ESA. Do I have to keep on asking a new sick note once the old one
expires or do I have to wait for the DWP to ask me for a new one?

2 weeks FFS, that is no good for someone who is claiming ESA, you need a
cert to cover you for the period pending treatment your GP should have

They issue a two weeker because they want to see you again in two
weeks.
If the GP wants to see them again in two weeks then the patient should
go and see them again. It is probably difficult if you are wanting to
claim additional benefits which need a long term view but that's just
part of the cr&p that goes with being sick.

even trickier with non-binary conditions.